SCL

@Nathan:
“if we cannot allow culture to dictate to us what is right, then why do we allow it to dictate what is wrong?”

wow. Bro that it awesome.

“use that time to do something that fricking matters.”

why are you reading this post then? did you read the title? ’splain me to that. it’s not about tats, and neither is my post. if you read the fricking post actually, what i’m saying does fricking matter. do you talk like that to everyone who fricking reads the fricking bible and tries to apply it, and even more so, tries to frickin share it? get a fricking soft heart, dude.

why should anyone get stick to the head for posting their opinion? or getting a tat? fricking yikes.

is it wrong to use the word fricking too fricking much? i hope this makes it past the the censorship board…

mistymorningmountain,
Your comments always make me laugh!

Also: I heart Hucklebuck.

Jon,
This post and comments have gotten my wheels turning about what I believe is right or wrong and WHY. Thanks!

(P.S. I think tattoos are cool.)

At the root of this debate is the question ‘Is the Torah [Law] done away with by Jesus?’

I’ll answer that question with an excerpt from a blog post I wrote about tatoos: [Read the rest at my blog]

This is really, I think, the basis for the world view that tattooing is morally acceptable: belief that the Torah [Law] was done away with by Jesus. I have a few big problems with that teaching. First, Jesus himself says:

“Don’t misunderstand why I have come. I did not come to abolish the law of Moses or the writings of the prophets. No, I came to fulfill them. I assure you, until heaven and earth disappear, even the smallest detail of G-d’s law will remain until its purpose is achieved. So if you break the smallest commandment and teach others to do the same, you will be the least in the Kingdom of Heaven. But anyone who obeys G-d’s laws and teaches them will be great in the Kingdom of Heaven. But I warn you-unless you obey G-d better than the teachers of religious law and the Pharisees do, you can’t enter the Kingdom of Heaven at all!” [Matt 5:18-20, NLT]

John also picks up on this in his three letters: “If someone says, ‘I belong to G-d,’ but doesn’t obey G-d’s commandments, that person is a liar and does not live in the truth. But those who obey G-d’s word really do love him. That is the way to know whether or not we live in him.” [1 John 2:4-5, NLT] Read this chapter; it’s consistent throughout. The Greek word for commandments is ‘entole’ and refers to the Mosaic Law [or Torah, the first five books of the Bible].

Paul is the only one who even remotely seems to preach abolition of Torah, but look what he says in Acts 24:14: “…I worship the G-d of our ancestors, and I firmly believe the Jewish law and everything written in the books of prophecy.” [NLT] ‘Jewish law’ there is ‘nomos’ which is the written Word of G-d, which is manifest in the flesh as Jesus [cf. John 1:14].

If Torah is made flesh in the form of Jesus, how is it even conceivable that the physical representation of the Word would contradict or do away with the written representation of the Word?

In the verses before and after Lev. 19:28, a few other things are forbidden:

* Never eat meat that has not been drained of its blood. [cf. Gen 9:4; Lev 3:17; Lev 7:26-27; Lev 17:10-14; Deu 12:16, 23; Deu 15:23]
* Do not practice fortune-telling or witchcraft.
* Do not defile your daughter by making her a prostitute, or the land will be filled with promiscuity and detestable wickedness.

Therefore, since the Law was done away with, it’s okay for me to prostitute my daughter, ’cause Jesus is okay with that now. And it’s okay for me to be a warlock, ’cause Jesus is okay with that too.

How is that even remotely explainable?

Michael L
I appreciate your passion for observing and following the Law. It is obvious that those of us that enjoy SCL are from many different traditions and practices of our Faith in Jesus and some who are not of the Faith. Although we are diverse and hold different opinions, we always should remember that we Christians are Family here and that our love for Jesus must be translated into love for His Bride.

At this point, it seems clear that those still following this discussion are convinced of their positions about tattoos. If those positions will be changed it will be due to the Lord’s changing our hearts and minds, not due to selecting passages of Scripture that seem to support one position over another. So, I’m not going to try to convice you with Scriptures addressing freedom and how we are not to judge another man’s servant. Nor will I pull out the Law’s other requirements that I would speculate most do not follow. Yet, kindly allow me to assert that selectively pointing out the most disgusting, ie. prostitution and sexual immorality, and selectively pointing out the more obscure, ie. purity washings and hair styles, are debating techniques that border on intellecutal dishonesty. In trying to win an argument, we must not lose our integrity.

I can see some validity that perhaps some people abuse the freedom we have in Christ. There are many statistics that could be used to demonstrate the blatant immorality in churches. I could also see that some arguments against a certain practice could be arguments that incorrectly use Scripture as justification. Jon’s Switzerland post is a good reminder against those dangers.

Yet, what concerns me is much more important than whether or not tattoos are sinful – I’m concerned more about the nature of salvation. Are you arguing that we are saved or maintain our salvation by observing the Law? I pray you are not. We are not justified by the Law. Romans 3:28, Galatians 2:16 We are saved and remain saved because of what Jesus did – not because of our actions. We should strive to be holy. We shouldn’t cast aside God’s Holy Law, as though it were yesterday’s newspaper. Yet, we should also remember that Jesus did fulfill the Law and He is our Only Source for salvation.

Peace be yours

In the interest of clarity and accuracy, here’s the article I mentioned above about the young lady with “tatter’s remorse.” http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20647003//wid/11915773?GT1=10514

I got some of the details right. 8-|

At any rate, hers is an interesting perspective on her own motivation for going under the needle. Her thoughts might be useful in checking your reason d’ink.

it’s a good thing salvation isn’t decided by us

IF we followed all the old testament laws my husband couldn’t touch me while I was on my period and people would have to shout UNCLEAN at me when I walked by.

I think the reference in Revelation is actually to a part of the robes a levitical priest wore. There was a strip of cloth that ran down one side. I could be wrong here, but I’m pretty sure I’m not.

I’m inked. It’s all good. I’m pretty sure my place in heaven is secure.

Let me preface this by saying there are several people whom I love dearly who have tattoos; I’ve considered getting one myself. However, by God’s Grace I won’t, because I have been commanded to come out from among the world and be separate. Yes, Jesus Himself hung out with unholy people, and yes He will meet us wherever we are, but He never changed His appearance to be more acceptable to the world. That said, some people have a calling to minister to those who are more receptive to people who look like them. Ultimately I think it’s a choice each person has to make based on their own personal relationship with Jesus, and the burdens He has placed upon them.

Diverting briefly to respond to the Obama comment –

Homosexuality and tattoos are nowhere close to being on the same scale. Tattoos are only condemned in Leviticus. If Americans would read the Bible before making foolish statements about homosexuality, they would know that homosexuality is condemned and described as an abomination in more than just Leviticus. It was one of God’s major grievances against Sodom and Gomorrah – BEFORE the Law even existed AND for a people that were most certainly Gentile and wouldn’t have been bound by the Law that would come hundreds of years later through Moses – and is also described as an abomination in the beginning of Romans – again, referring not only to Jews, but to all men.

In short: God told the ancient Hebrews not to get tattoos. God has always hated homosexuality, no matter who it was, because He had a better design in mind.

If they are then I’m screwed.
…meh

Karl- I guess the sarcasm through me off a bit. Sorry for jumping at your comment. I hear what you are saying and I agree 100%.

On woolen underwear–the bible doesn’t say that you can’t wear cotton or linen, just that you can’t wear a blend of wool and linen or wool and cotton, etc. There are all sorts of interpretations of this. My view is not to wear cloth made of a blend of animal and plant fibers. So, I may wear a cotton and linen blend or a silk and wool blend. I wear 100% cotton underwear anyway.

The clipping the sides of your hair bit really only applies to men as is obvious in Orthodox Jewish traditions. You will see men with curled “earlocks”, while women must shave their heads every month to get the most out of the Mikvah.

Also, many men with professional jobs, my husband included, wear a long beard. Even short beards are Biblically appropriate.

We all pick and choose the laws to follow. This has always been the way. I don’t agree with a “Christian” tattoo. Having a tattoo is one thing, trying to make it better by being Christian themed is nonsensical. Think “I am doing this because I don’t believe that law applies to modern Christians” instead of “I’m doing this to show how Christian I am”.

Or as a previous commenter said, use the money towards something more meaningful and LIVE the Christian lifestyle.

i’ll prbably echo some points made, but i had to give my two cents anyway… i am a tattoo artist. i was called to it by the Lord about 8 years ago. i am a saved, born again, spirit filled Christian and i love Jesus with all my heart, soul and mind. i have had the “are tattoos okay” debate serveral times and this is what it always comes to; peoples souls are what’s important. it really is a gray area biblicly. i agree that the leviticus scriputre reference isn’t applicable to us today becuause Jesus fullfilled the law which we are no longer under. that’s why i can wear cotton-polyester blend shirts and eat shrimp. the real issue is our hearts and are we living in such a way that ushers people into the kingdom? i really don’t care what people look like, what they wear, or how they smell. besides, i love art and what better way to appreciate it than wearing it and being able to take it everywhere you go?
keith johnson
http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=784403184

I’m not sure if anyone else has posted this link yet, but since the Jewish perspective on tattoos has been mentioned, at least in passing, here’s a New York Times article about Jews getting tattoos that I found interesting in light of this discussion.

“lets read leviticus in context folks people back then were cutting themselves in praise to others that were not GOD”

Exactly–and God said he did NOT want to be praised that way. Getting a tattoo is just breaking a law–like driving 5mph over the speed limit. Trying to associate religious significance to a tattoo is breaking the Spirit of the law–a much bigger deal as far as I’m concerned.

I love my tattoos!

First of all: props again for looking at Scripture in context, Jon. You give me hope for all Christian bloggers. (And lots and lots of laughs.)

I think that the tat issue is the same as the alcohol issue (and, typically, the same people are on the same sides). If you have a conviction against it, for you it is sin. If you don’t, then it’s not. The Bible doesn’t say tattoos are evil except in the markings for the dead thing. And even that was in Leviticus so it really doesn’t apply to anyone now. (You know what I mean.)

As to the person who says that it wasn’t the whole “for the dead” part that was the problem, but rather that it was what pagans did, are you telling me that you don’t use/wear anything that began with pagans? How about your wedding ring? Your earrings? Did you/your wife wear a veil on your wedding day? Do you celebrate Easter or Christmas on the typical days? Have you taken a look at a calendar lately? Clearly you use the Roman alphabet, since you typed a comment. The original usage of all those things was by pagans.

Just sayin’.

And – yet another story I’m sharing that you didn’t ask for, Jon – last year I went on a mission trip to El Salvador with some people from my church. (Just did it again this year, but this story’s about last year.) We all left our jewelry at home so we wouldn’t have to worry about it. All our literature was pretty bland-looking, and didn’t have any images of the cross on it. We got into a discussion with a lady who said her husband told her that Christians believe Jesus is still on the cross. We looked through all our stuff to show her proof that that was untrue. We had nothing. Then our youth pastor remembered the tattoo on his leg: a collage of a few Christian symbols, including – you guessed it – an empty cross. The look of realization on that woman’s face when she realized not only did we truly believe Jesus was alive, but we believed it enough to get it permanently engraved on our bodies, was incredible. She didn’t confess faith in Christ then, but she was clearly impacted, and had a lot to think about. If John hadn’t had that tattoo, would we have been able to truly convey our living hope?

(And no, I don’t have a tattoo, but I want one. I just haven’t had time to get it this summer because I keep traveling and leaving the country and such.)

“As to the person who says that it wasn’t the whole “for the dead” part that was the problem, but rather that it was what pagans did, are you telling me that you don’t use/wear anything that began with pagans? How about your wedding ring? Your earrings? Did you/your wife wear a veil on your wedding day? Do you celebrate Easter or Christmas on the typical days? Have you taken a look at a calendar lately? Clearly you use the Roman alphabet, since you typed a comment. The original usage of all those things was by pagans.”

If you are refering to me, I think you totally missed my point. It is not doing things that pagans do that I was suggesting was un-Christian. It is worshiping God in a way that pagan gods are worshiped.

As to answer your questions: no on the veil, yes on wedding band. we do family things on Christmas and Easter, but not religious ones. no on earings. The Bible also says that as long as it doesn’t break one of God’s commandments (like worshiping another god or worshiping God like other gods are worshiped) then it is best to fit into society as best you can–i.e. using the roman alphabet when communicating with others who know only that one.

As for the only image of an empty cross among your group is that of on tattoo–I find that disturbing.

To: Anonymous who wrote on JULY 10, 2008 8:20 PM…

You said….. “”what’s the point” once you shrivel up? It’s floopy and gross.”

Ok. Everyone will shrivel up… and everyone will one day be floppy and gross… with or without tattoos.

Only my shriveled, floppy skin will have a pretty little picture on it:)

kimana83,

great post. thanks!

Can anyone say it is wrong without saying it is a sin to tattoo your body?
Can anyone have an opinion without being told they are judging?
It is emotionally immature to yell "You're judging me" when told you are wrong.
Luke 6:37 speaks of judging as in condemning & unforgiveness. The Bible never tells us not to use judgment or not to confront. In fact there are many other scriptures that instruct us to do so.

Leviticus 19:28
" 'Do not cut your bodies for the dead or put tattoo marks on yourselves. I am the LORD.
I believe that if we researched the other scriptures in Leviticus we understand their true meaning.

Where the scripture in Leviticus fits in, was the fact that the pagans cut & tattoo their bodies for their gods and for the Jewish people to do the same was wrong.
Again today the pagans (the lost) tattoo their bodies to honor their god, satan. When they get saved these were permanent statements of their faith, that continue to honor satan. Because of Christian love we accepted these converts, tattoos and all. However in accepting them, somehow the practice of tattooing became acceptable, which it is not. It is offensive to many Christians, it associates the ties of a pagan practice and using a Christian symbol for a pagan practice does not make it right and does not glorify God.
This is like the man that brings an adulterous woman that he is having sex with to church to feel better about what they are doing. All the church rejoices when the woman gets “saved and baptized” yet the couple still live in their sinful life. No one tells them they are wrong and need of repentance that she should leave her lover and return to her husband and children.
You can’t dress it up and make it right.

As far as a tattoo being a witnessing tool, it is saying if we become more like the lost we will better reach the lost. What happened to relying on the Holy Spirit to guide us in ministering to the lost? Would the drunk better listen to me if I go into the bar, sit down next to him and order a beer, before witnessing to him? So he can say, "Man I can relate to them because they are just like me"! I have actually been told because I was never a drunk, never did drugs and never been to jail, that I could not effectively minister to those that have. Is it better to rely on experience than the Holy Spirit? My witness is what their life could be like if they choose to follow Jesus, how does following satan witness this? I’m not condemning those that use their past to witness, just don’t glorify your past to witness.

Then we have the issue of Christian parents that are teaching their children not to get tattoos and the teens says, “There’s nothing wrong with it, our youth minister has one and it is a cross”. Does the parent tell them the youth minister is wrong? That it is not glorifying God to tattoo your bodies like those that don’t know HIM? Most do not have the courage or feel they are undermining the youth minister; however isn’t the youth minister undermining their teaching?

Why bring division to the church, by doing things that you know are offensive to many Christians? Then yell, “You’re judging me!” when they are offended.
Out of respect to mature Christians, not to cause a child to stumble, not to do as the pagans do, you should control your desires and not get a tattoo. To those that have a tattoo before knowing your Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and those that have tattoos after knowing Jesus there are simple solutions. If you are able, cover it up. “Mr. Rogers dedicated the rest of his life to trying to help lead children on the right path in life. He hid away the tattoos and his past life and won our hearts with his quiet wit and charm.” Is this suffering for the cause of Christ? Or you could have the tattoo removed. What if you made your radical statement by saying, my tattoo is a sign of rebellion, is offensive to the elder, a stumbling block for the young, not a good witness to the lost, so I had it removed to glorify the true and holy God which I give my life and my body to.

As far as those that are overweight, cussing or smoking or anything that does not glorify God, you can also sacrifice your desires for Christ.

Galatians 6:17

Excuse me Mo, with the really long comment

Mr. Rogers never had a tattoo in his life. He was a certified minister, in fact. The tattoo story has been going around for years just so people can have something to say about him.

I researched him for a large paper and just felt that I needed to point it out.

(I know this is way off the subject of tattoos.)

As for getting a tat, my personal choice not to get one was simply that I couldn’t handle pain, and nearly faint when I need to get a shot.

I’d love to have one if it wasn’t painful/involving needles, and I hold no hard feelings against those who have them.

Great to see a blog that can be so to-the-point and talk about controversial issues, yet I’ve read through every single comment and haven’t seen the kind of hate you’d find elsewhere.

Romans 14:1 says that we are to accept 'he who is weak in the faith' and not to get caught up in 'disputable matters.' Although this is like so many others an important topic that should be discussed, we don't need some huge international summit of christians to get together and decide if tattoo's are sinful or not. The bottom line is this… our faith is not about how many tattoo's you had before accepting christ, or how many you had removed after, it's about love man… I know I sound like an old hippie, but it's true. This tattoo issue has no effect on Love and the Kingdom of God. You could be covered in tattoo's from head to foot, and Jesus will still look at you and say- "I love you kid.."
It's about Love and the business of the Kingdom, not disputable matters. DCL

Oh dear, Levitical laws. Paul had to pull up Peter cos Peter was bowing to pressure to follow the old laws that Jesus had freed them from (a new covenant etc).
Don't try to make me crawl back under the burden of following the laws after Christ freed me from all that. Honestly, you need to get your head around what Jesus has done for us.