SCL

God evidently changed the desire of Dolly Parton's heart, but I guess he hasn't changed or fulfilled Stacey's yet.

I love it when people presume to know God's will — for other people. Let's leave that up to Him, shall we?

"There are three things that are never satisfied, four that never say, 'Enough!': the grave, the barren womb, land, which is never satisfied with water, and fire, which never says, 'Enough!'" Proverbs 30:15-16

The Bible recognizes that the barren womb has the unquenchable desire to be filled.

Thoughts & prayers to those who are hurting.

Thank you for this post! My husband and I have been trying for 3 years, and have not been able to get pregnant. To avoid all of the hurtful comments, we've kept our struggle a secret from all but one friend.

The hardest thing for me is when people say "you'll understand when you have kids". Not only can I not get pregnant, but I won't understand anything until I do… great. Not to mention, people constantly asking when we're going to have a baby. I wish I knew.

I needed this post today, as it's been emotionally hard in the last few months. I feel like such a failure, and like I'm "broken". I never thought it would be this hard, but the pressue, especially in the chuch has made it that much worse.

Anon@10:41,
People like you are exactly the reason why I blog about such a painful struggle. You are NOT a failure, and you are certainly not alone, sister.
Thanks for sharing that. I'm sure it was hard.

We didn't have infertility problems but lots of friends that have shared those frustrations. Maybe it's just my profession (doc) that gives me access to this extra one for your list but I can't believe no one mentioned advise on sexual positions, timings, diets, and herbal remedies that are supposed to bring about fertility or the desired gender of your next child (I do have 3 daughters and everyone seems to assume I am dying to have a son. No thanks I am blessed with my girls and we are done- permanently).

@Lea

So the fact that I'm pregnant with a baby that was conceived using Clomid (the same drug Jon & Kate used) — is that baby less of a blessing than if I'd been able to conceive without it? Are my husband and I less loved by God? Absolutely not. I believe 100% that God provided people with the ability to create such things so that miracles can happen. This baby is the biggest miracle I've ever experienced because doctors didn't think I'd EVER be able to get pregnant. God gets all of the glory here, all of it, because HE is the one knitting this baby together in my womb. HE is the one who determined that the use of Clomid would be successful for us. I could do nothing, HE has done everything. If this wasn't in His will, it wouldn't have happened. That's all there is to it. My baby is a blessing, and my husband and I receive that very, very thankfully.

you need to do an addendum to this: how to survive church if you're single.

Anonymous 6:37…

You said, "…all the womens groups, or church sponsored dance or exercise classes, that all assume that all women are either 1) stay at home mothers or 2) retired… No I CAN'T come to Bible Study at 10am – No I can't come to ballet at 12! I'm at work (and so are a lot of other women, married and single both!)"

Ummm…they offer these things at these times because there apparently ARE some women who are available then. I'm sure they realize that not EVERYONE can come during the day, but some can. It's not a personal attack on working women. Not everyone could come during evening or weekend hours, either, but hopefully your church offers something during those times as well. If not, maybe you should consider starting something for women whose schedules are more like yours. Most ministries and activities are scheduled according to when leaders are available.

"Anon@10:41,
People like you are exactly the reason why I blog about such a painful struggle. You are NOT a failure, and you are certainly not alone, sister.
Thanks for sharing that. I'm sure it was hard."

Thank you Stacey. Sometimes I just need to know that I'm not the only one, especially when it seems like everyone around me either has a baby, or is pregnant.

I'd also like to mention that I think there is a misconception about infertility. Most of the time, it's caused by a medical condition. Which is why I don;t really understand why some people are so against fertility treatments. It's like saying that if we have cancer, not only was it God's will for us to get cancer, but if we treat it we're messing up God's plan for our death.

Endometriosis- Medical condition
Polycystic ovarian syndrome- Medical condition
Blocked tubes- Medical condition
annovulation- Medical condition

The list goes on and on. if someone was pooping out of their belly-button, they would have it treated, and wouldn't say a thing about it being "God's will". That's why we must be careful not to judge people. You have no idea how painful infertility is until you've been there.

Hubby and I have chosen not to have kids but we don't tell everyone we know this. One lady told me that if I do aerobics ( it HAD to be aerobics!) I would definitely get pregnant because her daughter couldnt get pregnant and doing aerobics MADE her get pregnant. huh???

can u pls remove the comment before last pls for obvious reasons? =) thanks~

Well said, anon@7:07am…well said!!

@Karen – Congratulations! What a blessing indeed!

Thanks for sharing this painful struggle. As someone who has seen both sides of this fence, I guess I can relate. We got pregnant easily the first time around, but have since experienced multiple pregnancy losses. The pain was unbearable, and not something that we will ever forget. Each time you get pregnant, you are on pins and needles wondering if this one "will make it." It is a painful place to be, especially when you know, or I know, that my faith should be stronger than that.

I know with our first pregnancy, we took for granted how easily it happened, and probably expected it to always work out that way. I'm sure I have said things out of just not understanding. Another of my friends is just starting down the road of seeking fertility help. As someone who has a child, I never mean to pry into her life, but I do desire so much for her desires to be fulfilled. And as someone who has lost babies, I desire that she should never have to experience that.

All that to say, I guess I didn't take offense to evenshine's remarks. When you love someone close to you who is desiring a child, you want to see that desire come true. I think a lot of people (most of the people) who commented on here have experienced difficulties in this area, or have had loved ones who have. We know it is painful. I think evenshine was just trying to say that people mean well….trust me, I've had some pretty dumb stuff said to me, but I do know they mean well.

I'm sorry for all of those reading this who have gone through this pain. I'm sorry my family has felt it, too. Frankly, it sucks. I just hate to see people get really angry at ones who are supposed to be church family. Because (possibly with few exceptions), I don't think any of these people say things to be mean-spirited or uncaring or flippant, but that they are just trying to grasp at some attempt of comforting words in a subject they haven't really experienced.

Thanks for sharing, Stacey. And Hucklebuck.

Number 3 will resonate with a wider audience, I think. 6 is funny for SCL regulars and kindred spirits, but 3 has general appeal.

Linked this post on my blog today because it's so good!! Many well-intentioned people need to use a little more discernment in what they say to or ask others in relation to pregnacy.

thanks for making me aware of how insensitive i can be at times!
my sister and her husband tried to get pregnant for 5 years though they didn't share it with everyone. they got many of these comments. then when she had the flu someone asked if she could be pregnant. she replied-it's possible, we do have sex. silence.
in my case after 3 kids i get the don't you know what casues that? and are you trying for a baseball team? 3 apparantly crosses the line of wanted children.
we can all be idiots …

After having some of these experiences myself (with miscarriage), I think I am more bothered by the people who make it seem that getting pregnant is a piece of cake. Honestly, I'm not bothered as much by the questions people ask (even though I've heard them!). I cringe, though, when people say things like, "My husband just winks at me and I'm pregnant!" As if it were that easy for anyone.

Hey Stacey
I reckon I score damn near to 100%!! Well done for covering all the grond & hitting the nail on the head!
(((hugs))) to you my friend.

What about the people that ask your friends if you're pregnant every single Sunday, or if you wear a loose shirt, or if you're having a fat day? Or the whispers/looks that you get when people want to know but don't want to ask because it might be uncomfortable….

Stacey, I don't know you, but I think I love you. I was nodding my head so hard while reading your post that I think my husband thought I was having a seizure. SO TRUE! And I think I got a perfect score. Is there a prize for that?

I'm sorry you are struggling with this stuff. I've had five miscarriages and also unexplained infertility. It is no fun at all.

We have three now, and now I get to shield the ridiculous "see, you just had to adopt before you could get pregnant" comments. As if adopting is some means to an end. Ugh.

Good words, and thanks for bringing some lightness to what is truly a difficult situation.

Excellent post!

We have 3 kids now, but before we had our first, we rode the roller coaster that is infertility. Though it was heart wrenching and downright painful at times, I learned so many valuable lessons about what NOT to say…or what to say, or better yet, when to just shut up and sit with someone who is hurting.

May God fill the hearts of those who's arms are empty with an overflowing, unmeasurable amount of His grace and peace.

I have tracked this post and its comments with great interest: I have identified with the arguments (even from the more controversial posters), laughed at the comments that are funny in retrospect but definitely unwelcome… I am engaged and haven't been in a position to go through the sorrow of miscarriage, the utter frustration of trying to get pregnant with no success, or the infuriating comments that people feel obliged to make. But it's not that I don't care… I want to, but being able to relate to someone whose situation I *don't* understand is the challenging thing!

The comments on this post come from such a spectrum of experience that no one person is able to experience it all. That being the case, we'll never be able to identify with everyone's story. As much as the post (with ensuing comments) has engaged and entertained me, both the 'what not to say' and the 'what to say that does actually help' has given me, someone without a clue really, a way to show that I care about what you're going through.

Thought of the minute: how can I make sure that my words and responses are driven first and foremost by how I care for the person, rather than by my opinion/analysis of their situation, opinion, circumstance or choice?

Challenge to everyone (it's be suggested numerous times but not articulated): be the one person in your church who doesn't feel the need to offer these comments that can cause people hurt and/or annoyance/frustration. I suspect that we represent a fair few number of churches across the world, so we actually have the ability to affect church culture. (Maybe that's a little idealistic of me, but seriously – be the change!)

Stacey: I admire the grace with which you responded to some people on this post. Thanks for the example to follow!

Thank you Stacey. This blog was just what I needed. Years ago I received a word about giving birth (I thought) to a child. Many confirmations followed. One pastor told me "hang on to this…I've never been more sure of anything". Eight years now, still none. I hung on to the promise. After finally getting a diagnosis, of which the disease treatment was a hysterectomy…the pastor said "I could have just been picking up what you wanted". Several other people said "What a praise report you will give when you give birth without a uterus!" (that must be 1000 pts!)

And of course, many others said not to worry, adoption is a wonderful avenue and you'll make such a great mom. Yep, kick me when I'm down.

I know they meant well, but a hug would have been a much better form of encouragement.

1st, a confession and apology. When we were much younger and dumber my wife and I used to send cards to people on the birth of their first child that said "congratulations on becoming a family." Years later I recognised the implication and felt like a real jerk, so my apologies to all the families out there without kids.
2nd, this probably doesn't belong on this post, because it's about the other end of the spectrum, but the 'dumb things people say' stuff goes on there too & some of the comments here reminded me of it. We're one of those couples who never had to try hard – in fact I would have liked our kids to have been the product of a little more work
My wife recently gave birth to #5, who is proof that the disclaimer on the side of condom boxes is both true and necessary, and it seems that in Christendom, not only are there people who believe you can't be a proper Christian without children, but also people who believe there's such a thing as too many children (actually, I think there's just lots of people who think everyone else should be just like them). We actually dreaded it when it got past the 'just a big shirt' stage and we had to say something because we knew the looks and comments we'd get, and we'd made a decision (apart from a few close friends) not to broadcast the fact that this was unplanned (I actually know someone who not only told their final child that they were unplanned but listed all the things it prevented them from doing – then wondered why the kid went off the rails!)
When I (the pastor, so did it up the front – like a bandaid – one motion; right off! Just get it done) made our news known my wife actually overheard someone a few seats away say to a friend "why would you do that?" Nice.
It was also inevitable that we would hear again several versions of 'haven't you worked out what causes it yet?"
I've found that; "Yes we do know, we just happen to enjoy/be rather good at it." Usually shuts them up.

@James – when you hear someone's bad news (of ANY flavor), there are a few phrases that are *always* good:

-I'm so sorry. You will be in my prayers.

-If you want someone to talk to, I'm here for you. And if you want to *not* talk about it, I'm here for that too.

-I promise to keep you in my prayers.

-Would you like me to keep this in confidence, or should I ask trusted friends to pray for you? (When my mom miscarried, a wonderful friend offered to quietly inform mutual, trusted friends of the news so my mom didn't have to repeat it over and over. That friend was such a blessing. But the key is, she *asked* my mom first, and my mom told her who to tell. Not everyone will want this, but in some situations, it can really help. And again, only if and who the person wants you to tell.)

-Is there anything I can do to help? Would it be helpful for me to bring you a meal/take your laundry to the dry cleaners/watch the kids for an evening?

-I wish I knew something to say, but I'm afraid anything I said would sound trite. I hope God surrounds you with comfort and peace. I will pray for you.

My heart aches for all of you who have also walked or are currently walking this road. I'm grateful that so many have shared portions of their stories here.

@James, thanks for your interest in the post and all the comments. It is obvious that you are concerned with building others up with your words and actions. I'm taking your challenge to heart as well. My own struggle has made me far more sensitive to other people who are dealing with all kinds of hurts. But of course there are times when I don't get involved because I feel afraid or inadequate. Anyway, thanks.

@Anon on July 12 @ 6:47, I agree wholeheartedly. Thank you for explaining that so clearly.

@Angela, saying prayers for you tonight. I'm so sorry & wish I could give you that hug now.

I'll score big with "the facing the giants" and every movie that talks about having kids..

And also with the dreams and visions of us having kids. Sometimes I wonder "will all of my church mate dream of us?"

and this is what I am becoming now..I am sometimes afraid to hold someone's baby even though I would love to cuddle and carry them because I know I will be asked that question of when will I have my own…

and we've only been married three years..

Thanks for this great post!

Stacey- You're amazing. The grace with which you answered Leah's posts was truly from God. Keep believing. And when God does answer your prayers, just think how all the people who love you will rejoice and praise God for what He has done.

When I married my husband, he already had 2 awesome boys. I love them like my own so neither of us feel the need to have any more together. Like you, I have had many inappropriate converstaions involving our reproductive organs, which inspired me to write a blog post entitled: "Congratulations, Now What Are You Doing With Your Uterus?" Funnily enough, since then I have not heard one comment!
I loved your post and your take on it!

If you did one on
"surviving church as a single woman in mid 30's who desperately wants kids and is not single by choice and doesn't have a major personality disorder" I'd score about a million points

Wow, we've been married for three years with no kids, and I can honestly say that I've never heard any of these before. This is probably a sign that we need to talk to more people at church…

Great post!

My wife and I have a 5 year old now, so we no longer get the "When are you going to start a family?" question… no it has now become the "When are you going to have another?"

A technique which we used to reduce the frequency of awkward questions was to put that intrusively inquisitive on the defense by answering "Well… we've been looking for a surrogate mother, what are you doing the next 9 months?" Worked every time

I was told "at least you have your dog." (because having a dog is the same as having a baby)

We struggled for a looooong time, and then we had our first daughter. God surprised us with a second child right away, so now we get the other side of it too.

I have heard the following more times than I care to count:

"well now that you guys figured out how it works…"

I was pregnant with my second at a ladie's tea, and in front of about 10 others, someone asked me "so once you pop that kid out, are you guys gonna use a little birth control?"

When you're a female pastor, married for a number of years, struggling to conceive and you're asked to preach on Mother's Day, that's got to be at least +1000 points
When you're a female pastor and someone in the congregation tells you couldn't possible oversee the women's ministry because you 'haven't even been through childbirth', +2000 points
Yep, both of these really happened!

Love the suggestion about asking whether it would be helpful to spread the bad news. I've never struggled with infertility, but years ago when I called off my wedding, I got thoroughly sick and tired of telling every single person I knew. Those few friends who thought to mention it to another friend spared me a lot of pain.

For a few years, I was the only woman in my church who wasn't a mom. No singles. No newlyweds. Just me and the moms. While the men in the church didn't have trouble treating my husband like one of the guys, the women never quite managed to include me. And it got worse as time went on. I got so tired of being treated as if I was somehow inferior to them. When we'd joined the newly-planted church, I figured other childless couples would eventually arrive, or we'd have kids. But I finally decided that if I ever qualified for membership in the moms club, I wouldn't want my kid around those people anyway.

As a side note, I always thought it was comical when people tried to comfort me for being childless, saying "Don't worry, it will happen for you someday." Maybe because I wasn't the slightest bit worried about it. I much preferred them to the people who told me I'd better hurry up and have kids. (Because the facts that I was recovering from a serious illness and my husband was on a military assignment on another continent didn't excuse me from my churchly duty to be a baby factory./rant)

My favourite comments always include people telling you they have the gift of praying for healing for infertile couples… the amount of people who have that gift is AMAZING!!! I can't believe that I still know any infertile couples, with that gift so freely available to so many in Christian circles. Close down fertility clinics, every second Christian actually has the ability to heal you!

I've also found bizarre the number of "prohetic pictures" people have of you holding a baby, or having your baby dedicated etc – I've been married 12 years with no kids. (Don't people know what happened to false prophets back in the day!!!!)

My worst, however, is people's eyes starting to tear up when you tell them you can't have kids, followed quickly by them grasping your forearm and telling you how sorry they truly are – this is almost always from people who hardly know you. "Sympathy" from a stranger makes me squirm!

I worked as children's pastor in my church for 6 years, when I finished people told me how great it was because I could finally have my own kids… actually it was because I decided to do a PhD!

This wasn't at church, but recently a relative of my husband's grabbed me in a restaurant, put his hand on my belly, and told my husband to "get to work." I wanted to scream.

@ Anon on July 10, 6:56 PM – Thank you! This is exactly what I was working to try to articulate in my mind. "All things work together for good for those who love the Lord." Love Him, and He will direct your steps.

To me it boils down to the self-centeredness of people. Not to sound harsh, but if folks would stop for two seconds to step out of their tiny world view and listen to themselves, they might think twice about the way they approach sensitive and private issues like childbearing.

We are called to pray and to show compassion, not to stick our noses where they don't belong.

Oh thank you, thank you for posting this! Every single comment has been made to me as we have been trying over 3 years now. We were tested as ok and have not taken drugs yet. We have small group get-to-gethers and everyone has kids but us! I like the church, I was we just had more couple things going on. I feel like such an outcast b/c I can't chime in on their children convos. So with all the other things spectulated as to how to have children… we are getting a new puppy this weekend. Ha, I'll start there. I wish everyone with kids could see this posting, as well as pastors.

27. I think there should be extra points if you are single and get all these.

The so-called "Christians" at our bible study and church were such idiots to us when they found out we didn't want kids we stopped going to any church.

I fall into a different category. I got pregnant young (I was 20) and unmarried. When my son was 4 years old I got married to my wonderful husband. We tried for many years to have a child of our own but we were not able to. Though I never heard it out loud, the attitude I felt was that I was "being punished" for having a child out of wedlock and that is why I couldn't have anymore children. I believed that for a long time. I now realize (I've been married 10 years now) that God just had a different plan for us and He has blessed me greatly. Even though I made poor choices, God redeemed them. My son will be 14 next week and he is such a blessing!

About 2 years ago, my wife went to a leadership conference at one of our denomination's sister churches nearby. At the session on "learning to hear God's voice" (or something like that), one person in the audience piped up with their vision that someone in the audience was praying to have a child. Pastor A asked if that matched anybody in the audience, and my wife raised her hand. Pastor A prayed over my wife for this to come true. The second leader of the session, "Pastor B", told everybody that Pastor A had a great track record with pregnancy prayers, and told my wife that she would be pregnant by the time the leadership conference reoccurred next year. It didn't happen. We were both left very disappointed; the verse about the punishment for false prophets went through my head a few times.

I don't hold any grudges against either pastor, and I haven't been praying for any well-placed lightning strikes. I was very bothered though that ordinary human enthusiasm for a deep-felt need was given a "thus saith the lord" endorsement.

On Mother's Day, our pastor tells every "woman who _is_ a mother or _has_ a mother" to stand up and be recognized. Essentially he's found a way to make EVERYONE feel uncomfortable. Well, everyone except for those of us who are laughing at the teenaged boys who weren't quite listening and stand up because they have a mother.