SCL

Stacey – Thank you so much for this post. I stopped counting after a while because well, I'm worried I'd go to church this week and lose all sense of restraint when a certain well-meaning person told me they'd had a vision of our future kids.

And I think we should give some bonus points to the husbands that love kids and would actually like to hold your precious little angel, but get a dirty "you don't have any kids and I don't trust that you know how to hold one" looks.

Also, I think you should get points for creative ways you've come up with to avoid having to share every detail of your infertility with people that ask you when you're going to have kids about 4 minutes after you meet them.

Thanks again for making me laugh and cry.

I, too, was impacted by the desert road post, thinking of infertility.

Like Stephanie, I'm a pastor's wife who is infertile–married for twelve years, trying for eleven. While I scored fairly high, I'm grateful that it wasn't higher. My husband and I are intensely private about this area of our lives (so much else is on display and open for discussion), and so we don't field a lot of questions about it. I think people take their cues from us!

For the first time ever, I didn't go to church this year on Mother's Day. My husband suggested that I stay home, and for the first year I can remember, it was a tear-free Mother's Day. That was a gift.

People do mean well–they just don't think. As with so many things, infertility cannot be fully understood until it is experienced, and those with children clinging to their legs have not. I know their lives are stressful and taxing, and there are rich blessings in our couplehood that I wouldn't ever trade. I work to see the goodness of God in my hurt. It's here–it really is. It's a choice I have to make, or my life would be miserable–just marking time and ignoring His kindness and incredible gifts to me (chiefly, my precious husband).

If you're visiting a new small group for the first time, and the first couple to welcome you is friendly and excited to meet you UNTIL you answer their question with, "No, we don't have any children"; then they promptly pass you off to the token other "MCWOK" in the class – +3 points.

Or being asked when you will get in God's will and start having kids, with the (stated or implicit) implication that not having kids is sinning. (I'm single, but I have heard this said to my MCWOK friends. Though come to think of it, I've had very similar things said to me about my lack of husband and kids.)

Amen to all the women workers! I'm married, no kids, 31. Why is the women's Bible study at my church on a weekday morning? It's catering for at home women…ugh. And when I have kids, I will still work…again missing fellowship

Wow, while I scored less than 30 points on the main test, I shot up when everyone else posted their additions.

Raw Faith Real world, I know what you mean. People are cruel to the childless-by-choice, even (or maybe especially) when the choice is for a difficult reason. Whether the reason is age, family history, health issues, or whatever, church folks just need to learn to accept the reasons as valid and not be so judgmental about it. Until they walk in our shoes, they have no clue what we face.

Connie, your response to Evenshine was much more graceful than mine would have been. To say what was said when there are people reading who have lost children or can't have them is just nasty. It's not edifying in any way to keep throwing a couple's personal pain back in their faces and pretend it's because of any alleged concern about them. It's just another weapon against those whose lives differ from the Americanized Christian ideal.

Right now, my husband and I are between churches. Reading this makes me wish I could give up the search. The stupid questions from single days were bad enough. The DINK questions are worse.

*Old DINK*

I'm single but I have a close friend who's a MCWOK. One of things I've noticed with her and her husband is that anytime they try to plan any sort of surprise party or something like that, or if they say they have good news they want to share with everyone, someone always has to shout out, "Oh my goodness!! You're pregnant!!!!" only to learn that they're not pregnant…they just wanted to share about a big job promotion or celebrate the fact that they closed on a house or something.

So +2 posts if any sort of "surprise" or "good news" is assumed to mean you're pregnant.

They have actually named the couples' group at our church:
"Couples with Young Children…. And JC and Laura" Group

HEAVENS. ABOVE. i always wanted to look back at that "sweet old lady" and ask her if she'd hit menopause yet or when she thought that might be coming along. What? We can't discuss your reproductive cycle too?

Megs – LOL. I try to think of snarky responses like that all the time. "So, when do you think you're going to have your next bowel movement? Oh, you're uncomfortable talking about your colon? Well, you were talking about my uterus, so I thought it suddenly became an acceptable topic of conversation. My bad."

Seriously. Come ON, people.

Leanne, I don't drive either and would be perfectly happy never learning.

When your church shows a video to highlight the need for childcare volunteers and opens the video with "Wanna get pregnant?" + 3

Since some have mentioned their favorite sarcastic remarks when asked "When are you going to have some kids?", I thought I'd share mine: "When we stop being so selfish"

I'm single but the assumptions about kids still bug me.
+4 to any parent that makes reference to being more mature than you because they had kids. Um, I don't think they got pregant by showing God a maturity report card.
+2 if they married people assume you want a "kid fix". I love teenagers, but under 12 – no thank you. I've been told more than once that's not natural.
And my big gripe? You say you'd rather have a husband(To my knowledge having a husband and wife makes the process easier) to the people in Bible Study when asking about how you must have a burning desire to have kids, and they look at you like they expect to see your picture on the news the next time there's a bust on prostitutes.

Thanks Stacey, I read your blog too and about cried my eyes out right here at my desk at work.
anyhoo, my husband and I are approaching our 8th anniversary and I'm approaching 30 later this year. I didnt even add up a score cause it would be too large…
right now, we are childless by choice, and that gets us some very strange comments indeed. we did leave the young married's small group that we helped form, but we have been blessed to go into college ministry. so when i get the questions of "when are yall having kids?" i tell people i have about 20 kids…they just happen to be about 20 years old!
i do struggle with feeling inadequete or even sinful because I dont want kids right now, and may not ever. it's not something i talk about alot….and ironically, i work for an ob-gyn's office…
thanks for sharing your story Stacey.

Stace, I hope you know I love you!

Thanks for sharing your thoughts on this very serious subject in a light and humorous manner. It's a good way to help ignorant people like me "get it."

If I helped raise anybody's score out there, I do apologize.

My personal rule is to never ask questions about someone's sex life. I am at a complete loss as to why someone's sex life has become an appropriate topic of conversation, especially in the church, over the past 30 years.

How about all the inappropriate things people in church say to pregnant women? From commenting on the family size, to commenting about one's appearance, birth horror stories, health of baby horror stories, "God's will" comments when something tragic happens, etc.

JenR

THANKS, everybody for your responses to this post. I appreciate those who point out that most people are well-intentioned. I definitely believe that, but sometimes you've still gotta laugh!

@Vicki in NC, your comment gave me chills. You're so right. Having a husband that special is priceless.

@Chris in Dallas, LOL! "When we stop being so selfish." I love it.

For all of you here who are struggling with infertility and/or loss, my prayers are with you as well. Thanks for sharing your stories here.

And for all of you who are caring friends and family members to an "infertile" – seriously, you have no idea how much we need and appreciate you!

Thanks Jon, for giving this issue a voice on your awesome blog.

42 points. It would've been MUCH higher if I'd been open about our infertility issues. I only told a couple of people who I trusted most about it, and they kept it to themselves, thankfully.

And I think there should be added points for every email forward you receive with a story about a woman who couldn't get pregnant, prayed once, and then couldn't stop having kids. Those forwards ticked me off but good!!

@evenshine

As well intentioned as your comments here, as well as those that you may make in church to childless couples, are intended to be, they are hurtful. For someone who has tried repeatedly to get pregnant to have to explain why she has no children is nothing short of heartbreaking. It's better to not ask, because asking is often viewed as judging. And frankly, it's probably not your business.

So I have a question, as a MCWOK by choice. When you know someone is having infertility issues (ie mentioned as a "prayer concern" after a miscarriage etc) what do you say to offer support? Just offer prayer? Is there anything you would like to hear from those of us who do not understand your pain?

How about just "I'm so sorry. I want you to know that I'm praying for you"? That's all that is necessary, really, and it could keep you out of hot water!

I was under the impression that Twitter solved all this.

"I'm at the doctor's now, 'turn and cough Mr. MCWOK.'".

@JBrown,

Excellent question! Stacey has actually written a couple of blog posts on the topic.

First, What Not to Say (which also include what to say.)

And then these two posts that talk about being supportive to those going through infertility.
Getting it Right
More on Getting it Right

Just the fact that you ask shows that you care. Thanks!

Sorry…that should be "includes"

Well, as much as singles and us married-no-kids like to complain about people digging into our lives, I don't think just having kids makes it stop. A friend with kids assures me that if you have one the next question will be when you're having another (after all, only children are all spoiled brats, right), and you better hope that if you do have another that it's a different gender than the first, because otherwise you've got to keep trying. And even if you do keep going till you get 3 or more and have both genders covered, then you're still a bad parent because nobody has the time, money, and energy to properly raise that many children.

There's no escaping it, you will be scrutinized.

I look at people like the infamous Jon and Kate. She was not able to have children but she did an end around with infertility treatment so she could. Just look at the mess of a relationship she brought those children into. It's sad. My own take is that she was shelfish. Like a kid who says, "I want! I want!"

I know some people who had their own healthy children but "wanted more" and they adopted. It's been nightmares for them. Literally marriages have fallen apart with the extra stress, unexpected job loss, etc. They didn't know what was down the road for them but God did.

My sister was at lunch with her friend who had wanted children so badly but had difficulty conceiving. They went thru years of expensive treatments and stress and finally had their two kids.

At lunch she was stressed and bedraggled. She said to my sister, "There's a reason your supposed to have kids in your 20s and not in your 40s."

Man is the only one who can go around the laws of nature that God put in place. It is the survial of the fittest in nature but man uses technology to create that which would not be created within the womb.

I know it's not easy and I don't mean to be hurtful but I am honestly asking don't you want GOD's WILL for your life? God knows what's best for us. If you're not able to have children, God has other plans for you.

Desire to be in HIS will, to live the life HE has for you. It will be SO MUCH BETTER than the one you can manipulate for yourself.

Being part of a MCWOK, I've been introduced to women at church functions before and been asked " Do you have any children?". Once when I replied "No, I don't", the woman looked at me like I was an alien, said "Oh", and then turned her back to me and began talking to another woman. I felt so loved by my sister in Christ!

@ Lea – I think many of the people here in the SCL community desire God's Will, even though some of us may struggle with it at times. I think you may have missed the point, (both serious and lighthearted) of this post. I would encourage you to read the links Hucklebuck posted, as they will likely help stretch your perspective.

I can so relate!! Of course, we do have kids now, but went through years of all those well-meaning but inappropriate comments.

LOVED this post!

I scored really high on the list having struggled with infertility now for over 3 years with losses so I can identify with pretty much everything.

Hopefully readers will realize how hurtful some of their well meaning comments really are.

[As for Lea... I think Andi said it well.]

I went on birth control right before my wedding, gained 30 lbs in 10 months (I'm off of it now and loosing weight — thank goodness!) and everyone just ASSUMED I was pregnant…because that's what good christians do when they get married, right?! Seriously, I had two people just congratulate me out of nowhere — it seriously sucked!

I didn't get married until I was 36, so even if I hadn't gained weight I think people wouldn't assumed we were trying right from the get go. Christians are obsessed with marraige and babies!

@Lea,

If you would check out my blog, you'd find that my husband and I have not yet used any fertility treatments to conceive. We are not against those who choose that path, and we may at some point do so ourselves after much thought and prayer. Even when medical intervention is involved, God is still the only author of life! My point is that God has given us six natural pregnancies that, for reasons we do not yet understand, were only for a short time on this earth.

We believe that God has placed the desire to be parents in our hearts. We know that we are meant to be parents, and we are willing to wait for the Lord's timing to make that happen whether through our own bodies or through adoption. Our hearts were designed to love and raise children. And we are pursuing God's will for our lives!

Stace – You are so kind and patient because what I would like to say to Lea right now is not kind and certainly does not show that I have patience with people who are totally ignorant! (Much less someone who would imply that you are not living in God's will.) Some people really should keep their two cents to themselves and quit trying to play "Holy Spirit" in other people's lives!

P.S. Sarah was in her 90's before she had a baby, that's a lot older than 40!

(oops, I accidentally posted this on the wrong post. here it is where it belongs.)

Evenshine: God told Adam and Eve to be fruitful and multiply. Just as God telling Noah to build an ark doesn't mean everyone is supposed to be in the ship-building business, neither should you assume everyone is commanded to have kids. Adam and Even have done a pretty decent job of "filling the earth and subdo"ing it. Its overpopulated and beat down enough already! Being married without kids for over a decade by choice, I was able to do so much more in ministry and impact so many more lives for eternity than had I been at home wiping noses (which I now am due to an oops, which everyone assumes was an answer to prayer – it probably was, just not my prayers! LOL)

Lea: adopted kids should not be blamed for their parents' failed marriages! Yes adoption tends to bring a harder parenting road due to attachment difficulties but stress doesn't cause divorce; only selfish parents cause divorce. Also who says God's will is found passively? God's will was for Canaan to fall to Israel but God still sent them to march. And to suggest God's will is to let parentless children suffer alone, often malnourished and neglected…wow. Not the God I serve!

(side note: I was on the path to adoption – licensed for 2 weeks – when we became pregnant with our oops. Yup we got a lot of those "it always happens when you stop trying" comments. Ha! It happened because we forgot the birth control on our vacation!)

WV: unfor. God is often unfor. None of us deserve the blessing of children or are good enough to raise them right. But sometimes we get what we don't deserve.

33 points. And an elderly male usher talked to my about my fertility. He also told me I was sinning because I hadn't had any children yet. Good times.

@ Connie – I understand 'cause what I really wanted to say was: For Stacey, Hucklebuck, and all the other MCWOKs reading these comments: +10,000 points for Lea's comment!

Wow.

Does Lea's comment count as a new low?

Andi: Only 10,000 points for that?

*Old DINK*

If you've ever made any of these types of comments to a MCWOK and feel bad about it, don't beat yourself up over it. I made some of these same comments before we were ever "trying" to have children. I regret it, but I was young and naive and it just never occurred to me what I was saying.

By the way, everybody's comments have been great! You guys are awesome!

Great post, Stacey. And thank you for your patient and graceful advice and blogging that has been helping to keep me from raising my IF friends and acquaintances' scores for a while now.

Some of these stories in the comments are just shocking, by the way. /

I love my church, but so loathe the lack of understanding regarding being married without children. The church structure is around where you are in your child-rearing, from everything from small groups to women's ministries.

14 years of marriage, two ectopic pregnancies, in vitro and two failed adoption attempts and tens of thousands of dollars of debt, I have very little patience for anyone's "helpful" advice. Trying to have a baby nearly cost me my marriage, health and sanity. I've made peace with the plan God has for our lives–and it is good. So, when someone says something hurtful, stupid or "wha….??" I tell them, "that's not God's plan for us."

And I've never had anyone say anything beyond, "Oh, ah, that's good then."

Yes it is.

Wow. I am so overwhelmed after reading this post and the many comments. Stace, I am so blessed by having such a talented, caring, and often hilarious sister-in-law. I love you so much and am so proud of you. You are always in my prayers. -A

I'm a single 24-year-old woman and I found out last year that I can never have kids. My body just won't do it. And even though those comments aren't directed at me, they make my whole body hurt when I hear them directed at others. I feel the pain of those who are asked about children, would love to have children, but can't have children. And for those couples who struggle with infertility, hold each other tight. And be so, so thankful that when you got the awful news about the non-functioning ovaries (or whatever your situation is), you had each other to cling to and didn't have to face that news alone.

Anwyay, moving on… the fact is that people who don't have children living with them in their home do have a special space that's open for others that parents don't always have. Sometimes a troubled teen will trust a couple whose shelves aren't lined with VeggieTales videos over their parents (or other parents). Sometimes childless couples do have the time or resources to do amazing, exhausting mission work that they wouldn't be able to do if they had to tend to 2.5 kids and a dog. Sometimes the second bedroom that doesn't have a crib in it is the perfect safe place for a woman whose husband drinks too much and becomes violent. I think the church needs to have a great deal more respect for all individuals, because each person's particular set of circumstances allow them to serve God in a totally unique and wonderful (and NECESSARY) way. And this knowledge is what sees me through the tough times when I'm feeling sad about my own troubles and inabilities.

Thanks for telling me that the coach's wife has a baby at the end, I haven't seen the movie!

I have heard so many of those comments being said to others, and thankfully I can now be more aware to not say them!

@Anon at 6:56,

Thanks for your very moving comment. I'm so sorry to hear about your situation. Your comment really reminds me that there are so many ways we can use our time and talents to serve the Lord and others, even when things don't turn out like we'd hoped or while we wait on His timing.

Praying for you.

@Carrie, sorry for the spoiler!

I completely "get" the point of the post – the humor as well as the serious aspect of it. I've gone to their blog. It's wonderful and I'm sure so helpful to many.

My comments, while not politically correct, were honest yet I knew people would beat me up for them.

They were general and not directed at the person posting which I thought was evident by my use of the Jon and Kate illustration and situations in my own life.

I never blamed the adopted kids for divorce – they are the victims.

Sarah's womb in her old age was blessed by God, not technology. Just like Mary's cousin Elizabeth's. When people lived to be 200, 300 or 900 years old, of course children were conceived at older ages.

Regarding not finding God's will "passively" – I think most people who want to have children are "actively" engaging in sex to make it happen. Ain't nothing passive about that. God parted the Red Sea – he can open closed wombs and direct low count sperm.

PW's post, as so many on here, is wonderful and her choice as to how to "see" her infertility is beautiful. Our trials help us grow in Christ and help us comfort others, as this post and related blogs demonstrate.

The desire someone has in their heart to be a parent can be fulfilled in God's way. Dolly Parton is quoted as saying, "I never had children of my own. God has his purposes. God didn`t let me have children so everybody`s children could be mine. That`s kind of how I`m looking at it."

2 Corinthians 1:3-5
"Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of compassion and the God of all comfort, who comforts us in all our troubles, so that we can comfort those in any trouble with the comfort we ourselves have received from God. For just as the sufferings of Christ flow over into our lives, so also through Christ our comfort overflows.

*Recommends we revisit Wed.'s post on the desert road… as fellow travelers on this long hard road, my hubby and I find that often posts like these foster more bitter feelings than realization that most of these people are well intentioned- no, maybe they don't know what it is like to struggle each month, so the make insensitive comments. Perhaps they just don't know what to say. Perhaps the reality is that they struggled too, but didn't go to God with the pain and are now bitter themselves…

Be a duck… let the hurtful comments wash off your back and cling instead to the words of truth – I have several Scriptures that God has repeatedly brought to mind and encouraged me regarding his plan for me… if I have to take the desert road to get there, bring it on!

-A hopeful traveler

Thanks hopeful traveler. No worries. I've totally learned to be a duck in the last decade or so.

@Lea – The fact of the matter is that you didn't comment on a post about Jon & Kate or about using technology to become pregnant, you commented on a post about what NOT TO SAY to people, specifically women who are hurting (in a way you obviously know nothing about) who do not have, but want kids.

About Sarah, yeah, I obviously know she didn't have access to technology, but she did pray to God to change her situation and she didn't know what His plan was. The Bible doesn't say she was "young", by the way, and she knew she was old and past child bearing age (even in that day and time Genesis 18:11)!

Frankly, here's the thing, Stacey put herself out there. She's got a tough skin. She's been through a lot. She's made the very best of an impossibly difficult situation and has used it to minister to others. Maybe your comment was honest. What if I thought those clothes you wore were REALLY REALLY unflattering? I'm being honest, but is it really necessary to say? Probably not!

Signed,
Stacey's protective Big Sister