SCL

I think its valid to forgive someone that hasn't apologized, but going up and telling them, is exactly as you say, soft revenge, under the guise of being Christian. But I do find myself considering doing it on occasion, but realized the lameness of it before hand. I think you should do a whole post (if you havent already, I've read every post, but my memory is fuzzy) on how we Christians love to find loopholes in our faith, and use our faith as an excuse to be a jerk.

In the example you give, the person doing the "forgiving" is not really following the Bible. If you wrong someone, that person should be willing to tell you the wrong if you ask him (Matthew 18:15-17).

There are two examples or instructions about when to forgive someone, given by Jesus Christ. One is, we should forgive those who claim to repent (Luke 17:3-4). In this example, Christ says, "rebuke him." In the example you gave, the person doing the "forgiving" never rebuked the one whom he claimed wronged him. The other example is that we forgive someone who has wronged us but didn't realize what he was doing (Luke 23:34). Jesus asked God to forgive those who were killing Him because they didn't realize that He was the Son of God.

In the example you give, the person doing the "forgiving" may be self-righteous and in a subtle way trying to appear righteous while trying to make the other person seem guilty. But if it were really done from a motive of Christian love, the person would follow the Bible and let the other person know what he had done wrong. But he doesn't want to do that because he figures it would start an argument. In that case, it would be better for the forgiver to just not mention it.

True Story:

I had a friend tell me "I forgive you and so does God."

Me: "But I didn't do anything wrong…"

Him: That's ok, we will talk about it when we are both ready to deal with it.

Me: What is this about??

I've been on the other side of this situation. That is, I've asked for forgiveness from someone I felt I had wronged only to have them tell me they don't recall the incident.

How about the flip side of this: Confessing to have sinned against someone who never even knew about it, and who is now uncomfortable for having known it…

Guy: I have a confession to make, oh female best friend of mine.

Girl: what is it?

Guy: I have sinned against you?

Girl: Really? I never even noticed.

Guy: No, really I did. And I want to get right with you and God about it.

Girl: But you're already right with me.

Guy: No, no, I'm not. You see, I have lusted in my heart for you.

Girl: uhhmm… ewww?

Guy: Really, I lusted deeply, heavily, and thouroughly. In my heart. For you.

Girl: oh. That's ducky.

Guy: I'm so glad that we've cleared the air. Aren't we so much closer now that we've cleared the air?

Wow…christians can be so weird sometimes. I always viewed this whole thing as "forgive them in your heart even if they don't ask". I think if someone did that I'd respond with "You're a jerk" and walk away. At least that way I'd know what they were forgiving me for next time…

Actually 7 times 70 calculates to 490. (Leave it to an engineer…)

Which means on number 491? Pull the forgiveness out from under them like you're pulling a tablecloth off of a dish covered table.

(Totally joking on that. We should totally forgive more like 2900 times Jon mentioned, if not more like 2900 kabillion).

I had a friend forgive me once for making him upset-by not responding to a fight he wanted to have! Crazy days. It went a little something like this:

Friend: I forgive you for not wanting to walk through our differences.
Me: You mean, walking away from a fight?
Friend: I really need to forgive you, otherwise neither one of us will be able to really worship.

He always does that. Forgive, or take away worship privelages.

@ Bittersweet Fountain, you beat me to it, I was going to say it's 490. I know I've had to ask forgiveness from God way more than 490 times.

I feel bad for people who take the Bible completely literally. "Um, let's see, I've asked for forgiveness 8 times. So let's see, uh, that leaves me with 482 more times. I'm good for awhile."

@Raven – LOL, forgive or take away worship privileges. I like how your friend thinks those are the only two options.

I have a friend that thinks I'll forgive him if he gives me enough Hallmark cards. Because we all know Jesus commanded us to give Hallmark cards out as a sign of apologies.

@Nicodemus-Wait, you mean, Hallmark cards won't make it better? Crud!

Sometimes forgiveness should be only an act of the heart- not always including the mouth.

Someone: Know that thing you did?

Me: Which thing? I lost track.

Someone: That crappy thing.

Me: Which one?

Someone: You know what I mean.

Me: Actually, there have been several things I've done. I was just waiting for you to notice. Good for you.

Someone: I forgive you.

Me: Thanks, but mostly I just wanted you to quit trying to rope me into Amway.

"Hedge of protection" – That cracks me up every time I hear it because nobody says that outside of the church. I can just imagine a group of soldiers going in on a covert operation and the commanding officer says "You and you…through that door. The rest of you build a hedge of protection."

I know someone who did that. Person A wrote out a 5 page letter explaining all the things Person B had done and how mad they were and oh yeah, I forgive you for it so I can feel better. So Person B writes back a 3 page letter explaining that they didn't realize they were hurting Person A and apologizing. So now Person A is mad again.

funny. i wonder though, should n't we deal with our hurts. of course not in the awkward way described but if someone has hurt us, should we not confront, talk about it and forgive them? even if they do not apologize? we may be letting them inon something they don't even realise they are doing that is harming others.

I also love the phrase "hedge of protection." I once heard a comic do an extended riff on it. Now every time I hear the phrase I think of God's shrubbery.

My MIL…on her deathbed…reaches for my hand, pulls me close and says…"I just want you to know…I forgive you…for ALL OF IT. I love you."
Me "uh…thank you…?"

I had no idea.

I can't blog about this, but I really, really want to.

@ Brian. I think we should talk about our hurts but it should sound more like "Something happened the other day that has been bothering me and I was hoping we could talk about it" instead of "You did this and this and this and I forgive you even though you are a horrible person and won't ask for my forgiveness". I think it's the "soft revenge" idea that's being hit on here, not the idea of never talking about hurts when they happen.

From the math teacher turned writer, Jon and engineer, 70 x 7 is neither 2900 or 490. It is a metaphor. I am hoping that I don't have to turn into homeschool mom on you to actually explain the metaphor. I mean, how could anyone mess up the story like that? *fuming quietly*

Oh wait, I can't be mad at you. I forgive you both. You know.

WV: heernica-instrument played by the Hear ye, Hear ye, I forgive ye person

Me: Man, Jon sure plays a mean heernica.
You: Yea, but I wish he would play it somewhere else for awhile. He gave me an ear hernia.

Okay, that was really only funny in my mind. And I might be a bit warped having two teen boys at home.

And after I did that nonsensical WV explanation on top of a teacher post about metaphors, the WV this time is…really, you won't believe it. I may as well not tell you. You'll think I'm making it up.

Oh, alright. It's metaglor. Satisfied? Metaglor-a metaphor Jesus used in one of the Gospels

I think the really subtle deception in "forgiving" somebody like this is that we get to skip the part where we admit we were actually hurt by someone.

The most dangerous part of seeking reconciliation as a Christian can often be admitting your own vulnerability and confessing (in a sense) to somebody that they have the power to hurt us, but this is a necessary step if true reconciliation is to happen.

I don't know if I have been forgiven for something I didn't apologize for. I'm sure I have forgiven others when they didn't apologize but I'm not sure if I have told them about it unless they later apologize and I get to play the uber holy card "don't worry about it I have already forgiven you."

Now I can tell you all about fake apologies. My MIL and I got into it and I did some childish things but I needed to blow off some steam and everyone else thinks it's funny but she has no sense of humor and really doesn't like me so it made things much worse and I knew it would but what ever she doesn't like me and this is like the longest run on sentence so I'm gonna have to put a period in her somewhere and this might as well be it.

Anyways, a while later she come up to me and says, "Sorry." Literally one word no admission of what she did wrong or even that she is the one that is sorry. Of course I was magnanimous despite the lack of proper flagellation for her crimes against me (that's the one that means self abuse not gas right?) and said, "I forgive you."

Awkward silence.

"Now you are suppose to apologize to me."

"Oh, I'm sorry?"

"No you need to tell me what you are sorry for," she then goes on to list all the things I am sorry for to which I respond "sorry" at appropriate pauses. I assume the were appropriate pauses because that's the part I stopped listening.

Jon – That was good. Really good. I'm pretty tough skinned. I'm not easily insulted. You have to actually make a concerted effort to offend me. Sometimes I project that on others and I wonder sometimes if there are folks out there who are waiting for an apology from me. It's something I'm really working on, because I would never intentionally hurt someone. But sometimes my spiritual gift of sarcasm goes a bit too far.

Yep. I've done this in the past and you are dead on. It's revenge to make yourself look good. Thankfully, this was pointed out to me and I strive not to do it under any circumstances.

Sigh…I've done this before. Fortunately mostly in my head and rarely out loud…

Oh gosh, guilty. I even did it by letter. And I was ending the friendship at the same time, so, looking back, it probably read something like, here's a list of the horrible things you've done, whatever, I don't hate you for it, but I don't ever want to see you again.

Awesome.

I think I've been on the giving and receiving end of a variation of that, where I'm apologizing, but really it's your fault, but I want you to know that I realize my culpability, even though you should know that you are at fault here.

"Hedge of protection"

I haven't noticed how lame this term is in today's context until you used it today.

Seems we Christian warriors could ask for more these days.

A Batcave of protection, perhaps.

I'd even settle for a pack of wild squirrels of protection, but a hedge?

Demons shudder, gardeners grow confident.

Thanks, Prodigal One.

I once asked for forgiveness of a friend and also offered forgiveness to that friend in an email because she would no longer talk to me. She then responded by telling me that she would not forgive me for what I had done and also said that she was not wrong in what she did. We're still not talking.

@ TJ Turner: You perfectly captured the difficulty some face in "admitting your own vulnerability and confessing (in a sense) to somebody that they have the power to hurt us…"

This is something I've been personally struggling with, not wanting someone to know they have the power to hurt me. But I didn't know that was the source of my inner conflict until I read your words. Thank you for expressing what I could not.

Yeah, this happened to me, only worse because it was a letter, and the person said she forgave me but we couldn't be friends anymore.

I didn't even know she was mad at me to begin with. Sigh.

when they adamantly believe they've done nothing wrong that would warrant forgiveness, how likely are they to welcome it with open arms? ::frustrating::

@Monique and TJTurner:

WOW. I have been struggling with the same thing, having these feelings of resentment against someone without understanding why… now I know… still don't know what to do about it… but at least now I have a start.

WV: feardup- the state of being afraid to confess that someone else has the power to offend you.

I want to tell Lindsay that when she leaves me out of things it hurts my feelings but I'm too feardup!!!

All's I know is that I want a briar patch of protection.

Having said that, only in marriage have I discovered how important the quiet, constant forgiveness really is… for both parties!

Oh, this is soooo true…and every time it has happened to me, it's made me feel awful. I wish they had just kept their forgiveness to themselves!

This post is hilarious and made the problem with our current understanding of forgiveness clear. We may not all tell the person we forgive them like this, but many of us believe that we can forgive before someone apologizes. The truth is, we're called to forgive like God forgives us which means we should forgive when there is repentance in order to be reconciled to the person who wronged us. God calls us to always be willing to forgive and to offer forgiveness, but not to forgive unconditionally or without reconciliation. I highly recommend Unpacking Forgiveness by Chris Brauns since it explains what I'm trying to say much much better.

I think its funny how some people thought Jons "2900" was serious….just throwing that out there. Haha

dude…up here in minnesota we do that all the time! it's called being Minnesota Nice…or passive aggressive emotional torture…but it usually goes like this, "No, it's okay that you let your little 5 year old boy ransack my house while you desperately try to stay mentally involved with our Bible study, but ultimately failing and showing that your parenting skills aren't as good as mine and your boy will probably be in prison or dead by the time he's 16…i forgive you!" see? it makes everything seem nice, but really causes the person to feel inadequate which ultimately leads to a mental breakdown.

WV: Unpro
Definition: a)Being fired, ex. Mike Shanahan.
b)Engaging in acts that should get you fired, ex. Mark Sanford.
c)A combination of the two, ex. Bernie Madoff, et al.

Of course you post this when I'm getting killed by people who won't tell me what I've actually done, just vague notions of being 'unbiblical' and then arguing semantics. GRRRRRRRRR!

John, I forgive you for challenging my unforgiving heart without my permission, you jerk.

Great post, as always.

I've apologized for stuff I haven't done…but that's a long story.

In my experience, this tends to be a result of a combination of #570: Getting disappointed when you don't have a life-changing experience on a retreat and the "emotional worshipers" who were mentioned in the comments of #564: The 11 people every youth group needs. (As commented by Anonymous: Let's not forget the "emotional worshipper(s)", seen most at church camp or youth retreats when mom, dad and school classmates are most distant and unable to observe the transformation into super-spiritual mode. seen arguing with siblings and parents ten minutes after getting off the church camp bus. often come as packs of girls in the front row.)

Deadly combination, leading to all kinds of public, group-sharing-time forgiveness of ex-boyfriends and former crushes.

Not that I'm speaking from experience or anything.

One of the best I have heard was advice from a friend to tell someone else, "I don't need your participation to forgive you."

What about when someone offers their forgiveness to you for something you didn't recognize because you weren't even offended by it, and then they pause… waiting for you to forgive them back…

I always remember when in the late 90's someone asked Billy Graham if he forgave Bill Clinton for adultery. Billy Graham responded by saying something to the effect of "I don't think he ever asked for my forgiveness."

Oooooooh yeah. It really is a "soft revenge", heap burning coals on me any day over this one.

On a serious note, this kind of behavior seems to point out how little we as the church understand reconciliation. Sometimes these people really do desire to make relationships right, but they've never had the "how" modeled for them. And so, WHAM! "I forgive you" followed by the confused look of the offender.

On the opposite end, I had a church friend drift off for no apparent reason, begin avoiding me, and finally spoke only formalities to me for months after we'd been very close. When I finally managed to ask her if I'd done anything to offend her, she set her jaw and said, "Well, yeah, actually, a few months ago." "Really? Wow, I didn't know, what did I do?" "Well… it's been a while and I forget now but I remember that it really hurt."

I think I stammered out, "Well, I'm sorry for offending you…?" Talk about walking on eggshells because she couldn't figure out how I had offended her to begin with.

As a side note, that happened in junior high. Too bad it still happens when we're adults, aye?

Hi. Kate here, long time reader, first time poster.

I've been part of Celebrate Recovery for a while now and one of the steps I've struggled with is "offering forgiveness to those who have hurt us." To many that means going to the offender and actually verbalizing the forgiveness. But I think you rob the person of coming to the realization they need forgiveness when you do that. Maybe that person knows the totally screwed you over and maybe not. But when you extend un-asked-for forgiveness to another you take away from them the journey of learning they need forgiving.

For me, I've done a lot of forgiving others, daily working on my resentment in my heart until I've come to the point where I can openly pray for God to deeply and richly bless their life. Then I know my heart will be ready when they come and ask for forgiveness … and if they never do? I've done the hard part for me already.

As to the person who mentioned confessing that you've sinned against another person to that other person. Confession is AWESOME, but that's why there's counselors and sponsors.

I forgive you for multiplying incorrectly.

Can my hedge of protection be the one in Sleeping Beauty? You know, the one with the thorns and the roses and a big dragon?? Only, without the witch. She scares me.
Maybe instead of saying randomly "I forgive you" we should be saying "I was hurt/offended/____ when you _____". But no, that actually works on the PROBLEM and doesn't seek to make the other person feel belittled or guilty for something they don't know happened.

This was a tough week for me because of a particularly heartless and offensive comment that was so shocking that I honestly did not know what to say. Of course, the other person involved felt she was sharing the wisdom of God with me. I have forgiven her, but I have come up with a new, rather unique response if this should happen again, because it happens so darn frequently at church: "Get behind me, Satan."