Secretly believing the prosperity gospel.
Nov 6th by Jon- Tagged in:
- Guest Post
(I like to think I’m funny and have big faith until I meet people like Michael Kelly. He’s a writer with a hilarious wit but it’s his heart that struck me most. When I first met him, he told me, “I was headed down this path of being an author until my two year old son got leukemia and my priorities changed.” He’s years down the road on that journey and it’s been a great privilege to learn about the miracles God has worked in Michael’s family. Today, in further proof that big faith and big funny can live in the same person, Michael joins us for a guest post on Stuff Christians Like. Enjoy.)
Secretly Believing the Prosperity Gospel
There are a few whipping girls and boys for conservative evangelicals out there—you know, the ones where we sit down and drink non-alcoholic beverages together and talk about how screwed up the way those people think about God is. It’s a pretty distinguished list, when you think about it. Of course, there are those you expect to find: Barack Obama, Oprah Winfrey, and Brad Pitt.
But then there are also those on the “whip it” list that would only be known to the non-drinkers. And many of these people—Joyce Meyer, Joel Osteen, Creflo Dollar—get the nasty stick because they preach what has become known as the prosperity gospel. The prosperity gospel, in a nutshell, is that it’s never God’s will for you to be sick, or sad, or poor. Those with the greatest faith are also the most prosperous, and so “blessing” from God is basically incurred in a cosmic flea market. You bring the Big Guy your good stuff and He gives you some of His good stuff from the heavenly storehouse. You give money away then you gain it right back and then some. You pray with a holy handkerchief and your shingles go away.
Reprehensible, right?
Right . . . except that there’s still a piece of us that kind of likes that idea. It would, after all, be a lot easier than the whole “grace” and mysterious sovereignty issue we unfortunately have to deal with. So we keep this little piece of the prosperity theology tucked away in our treasure box, and only break it out late at night when none of our Bible-thumping buddies can make fun of us.
Here’s a few ways in which we secretly believe the prosperity gospel, but shhhhh…. Don’t tell anyone…
1. The little things.
We don’t really believe that God wants us to have our own private island. But when you’re driving around at the mall on the weekend after Thanksgiving and suddenly the space opens up right in front of Sears, isn’t there a little part of you that thinks, “Bam! Step off the Lord’s anointed one! I’ll be in and out with my BBQ tools in 10!” And in that moment, aren’t you glad you had your quiet time that morning?
2. Selective scriptural interpretation.
Sure, there were a lot of poor folks in Scripture. And some of them got their heads chopped off. But what about Abraham? That brutha was full of faith, and he got more kids than sand. And Job? Well, there is that bit about him losing everything he held precious in his life, but hey—he got it all back and then some! If they were rich, why not me?
3. Keeping track of “blessings on layaway.”
Your write that check for a missionary every month. You make out the check to the First Church of Community Riverside of Spiritual Development (campus 3). You even gave some spare change to that dude with the dog the other day. And in your treasure box, there’s a little mental checklist that waits for the ROI to come rolling in. You have been faithful with little, so…
4. The heavenly barter system.
Granted, this one kind of went out of style when we left college, but before then, we were very interested in trading God our church attendance for a new bike. Or Scripture memory for that chick’s phone number. But even though we’ve grown in these areas, we still like the thought that we can grease the divine palm with a little obedience: “Oh, street evangelism is very uncomfortable for me, God. But I know you want those people to hear about Jesus. Maybe I could be persuaded by a certain Mr. Benjamin?”
Yes, the prosperity gospel is alive and well. Fortunately for us, we can still hold onto in these small ways and yet still pick up with beating stick when the conversation inevitably turns the way of Mr. Osteen.
(For more from Michael, check out his blog michaelkelleyministries.wordpress.com or the publication he writes for threadsmedia.com)
Comments
Love the blessings on layaway. When it’s time to put money in the plate, it sure seems that even our strictest Indpendent Baptist preachers become prosperity preachers…God can’t bless you if you’re not giving, they might say. Or Ever since we started tithing, God has poured out (monetary) blessings on us.
Both of those, and their relatives, always make me want to stand up and ask, What about the heathen movie stars who never give God the time of day, much less their money, and they are living large! Or the multi-millionaires who stomped all over some less-blessed to get where they are and they have everything. If God can bless them, because I know you’re going to say it rains on the just and unjust alike, then why can’t He bless me without my monthly “payment?”
I mean, it almost feels like protection money. Give the money to God’s collection thugs (preachers) or you’re going to get roughed up a bit-the converse of the whole prosperity mess.
Sigh. I reckon I should jump off the soapbox. Good post!
Not to mention on the flip side the believers in the developing world who faithful give in all sorts of ways but aren't sure if they will be able to eat today.
I both agree and disagree. It is true that we are called to give, and in obedience God blesses us, but we are already incredibly blessed in America so I tend to try and point that to point that out personally. Our most poor are still better off than easily half the world.
Nick the Geek: Find that in the Bible for me please. Find where God tells us Christians (not Israel nor Jews) that He will bless us if we obey. Show me in the NT where we are commanded or even suggested to give out of obedience. If you honestly read the verses about giving I think you will change your theology. And when you start giving out of JOY drop me a line and then let’s see if you feel the same about your comment.
Guy, you need to read Matthew 25. Nick said that we are called to be obedient. In our obedience, God blesses.
Blessings on layaway was the best. I don't have a soapbox this morning, but I'm just really impressed that Jon found a guy who can take the prosperity gospel, something we talk about all the time, and talk about it in a way that no one is doing. Awesome.
One of the best speakers I have heard on this topic is Justin Peters at http://www.justinpeters.org/.
Really Hucklebuck? Justin Peters? You might as well take out the name Justin Peters and insert the name Bill Gothard. What is it about this guy that you like? Is it his nice, clean cut, caucasian Baptist appearance? (large Bible included in Bio photo) Or is it the fact that he bolds the names of Benny Hinn, Creflo Dollar, etc. so that they jump out at you off the page? He even bolds the etcetera!!! Who falls in the etc catagory? The Apostle Paul? Billy Graham? Nothing like a little sensationalism, right? Here you've got a guy attacking the sensationalism of Benny Him and Co., but the reality is, is that his own "ministry" is just a different version of sensationalism. It's like arguing over what's better – Applebee's or Chili's. Beware Hucklebuck, you've been duped!
Don't forget redneck. I love me some rednecks!
Joe, have you actually watched at least the 20 minute demo on Justin's site? Justin Peters does not attack people, but their theology and methods of manipulation which has hurt so many. Do you know those are have been hurt by this movement? Truly hurt? Justin does. He personally helps many of them who turn to him every day of his life. What Christian would argue over another Christian carrying his Bible? Justin loves the Word. Would you attack Benny Hinn for carrying his Bible in a picture? Of course not. Brother, it appears you may be the one duped. God bless.
CLS- Welcome to the Enlish language. Go back and read my comment "attacking the sensationalism of Benny Him and Co." Thats different than "attacking" an actual person. My point is not whether or not Prosperity Gospel Preachers/ Teachers are good or bad – But rather Justin uses the same techniques as they do to generate support and interest. This is very evident by looking at the salesmenship on his website. Furthermore, he abandons tangible, verifiable people in his statement and uses an etcetera. Maybe he's talking about you, or me, or your pastor. Do you see the danger in that? Plus, it's bolded so it jumps off the webpage at you. That is sensationalism. Again going back to your mastery of the English language…Where do I attack Justin for carrying a Bible? I do however point out that he fits a stereotype, and, is ironically attacking those who also fit a stereotype.
Here is another!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jLRue4nwJaA
Curious if you've ever heard Joyce Meyer or Creflo Dollar speak? Because I have… many times each of them. Never once did I feel like I was getting the prosperity gospel.
Hey Jennifer. If you've not heard a prosperity gospel from Joyce Meyer, it's because she hides it well. But it's there. The undercurrent of articles like this one is that God wants us to be happy, or healthy, or rich. She almost never comes out and says it, but it's there. And it flies in the face of the fact that Jesus was "a man of sorrows" and beaten to death, and dirt poor.
would totally agree. I have heard joyce meyer speak, I know people that work for her, and I have also been to the church that she is affiliated with, she is very tricky.
Especially when the local new station hunts her down and ask about her "parsonage" that is worth millions of dollars, or her $30,000 dollar bath tub that she is installing and writing off for taxes.
She operates out of St. Louis and I live in St. Louis and have seen for my own eyes her message and how it effects others.
Where in the Bible does it say Jesus was dirt poor??? And yes He was a man of sorrows because he was rejected, ridiculed, and destined to take on the sins of the whole world, but poor?? You have to give me chapter and verse on that one.
Who needs verses chuckdog? You can sleep safe at night knowing that Jesus was riding his spinner-rims tricked out Caddy round down-town Jerusalem flossing his chain-blingy-blingy crucifix (hmm, what's that symbolise again?) whilst supping on some nice vinegar-n-wine with the homies who'd just got back from watching the local football team trounce those pathetic foreigners! Don't worry they all had their star-spangled banner-colo[u]red WWJD = What would Jocks do bands on? GO TEAM USA!
What about our "heavenly bank account"–all those treasures in heaven that we build up for ourselves for our works? Is that part of the prosperity gospel? When we have just made it through a bad situation with ourr faith in God intact or even given Him glory, how many of us are thinking, "Ca Ching! I've just added some bling to my heavenly bedroom." ?
My biggest problem with prosperity gospel is the amount of scripture and life that is ignored. Jesus was not prosperous by the standards back then … so why should we feel like we need more that we have now? What is worse is when a child is sick and the parents have always been faithful but then the child dies … so their faith not so good? What about the child next to theirs in the hospital with the same disease who recovers. Did that family have more faith? What if that family worshiped satan and had a billion dollars in the bank?
I tend to get more from Ecclesiastes "it rains on the just and the unjust" for times like this. I remember what Jesus called us to "count the cost" and that life is full of sin and isn't fair even if we are living right.
Despite that we do want to grab hold of prosperity because it makes us feel good about ourselves. That is why the teaching is so pervasive in America. We control something like 90% of the world's wealth. Where else could such filth become popular?
I should stop now before I start saying mean things.
Amen.
actually I think Jesus was prosperous…he had a treasurer, you only have one of those if you have money! also I've heard it preached that when he was being crucified the guards tossed for his clothes because they were made from the best linen. All his needs were met and he had lots to give…that is the example we need to follow I believe:)
One might argue that he had money based on these things but based on the greater evidences it just doesn't add up. Jesus was a carpenter for the first portion of his life. In any society the labor force is not paid well. This is true in America today and especially true in 3rd world countries. It is unlikely he owned any land which is the real measure of wealth. The Bible says, "he didn't have a place to lay his head." Hence my assumption against land. He walked everywhere so despite having a treasurer they couldn't afford horses, donkey, or camels to ride on. These beasts of burden required initial payment and ongoing payments for food. We can reason this out based on the disciples being sent for a donkey so he could enter the city in style. If he already had a ride he wouldn't need one. Further we can know that they would only own what they could carry with them in their travels. Without land or beasts to carry more than they could carry they couldn't have much wealth.
This leaves the question of the treasurer. It is reasonable when you start any ministry that you have a treasurer in America. Even if the ministry has a grand total of $1500 (or even less) like a ministry I am working with right now. Someone has to deal with the money however much or little there happens to be. However, based on the reaction of the treasurer with regards to money in two different instances, we can reasonably assume there wasn't much in the ministry of Jesus. First we see Judas' reaction when Jesus is anointed. He is offended at how this wealth is spent. If there was much money in the treasury then it wouldn't have been so offensive. Then he sells Jesus out for 30 pieces of silver. Once again, if Jesus was a man of wealth Judas would have gone where the money was, this much seems clear from the deal.
People that try to reason that Jesus (or most of the other major figures from the Bible) are suffering form great wealth are reading into the text instead of letting the text speak. We have a couple of clear and obvious scriptures that say Jesus was not a man of wealth. We have his statements about wealth, and we have the logical inferences about his social/economic status.
His needs were met, and he did give much, but what eh gave was not money. Much like Peter at the gate called Beautiful His life said, "gold and silver I have none but what I do have I freely give."
Nick – not true about the labor force having low wages – consider Union carpeters or electricians in Chicago. Most journeyman earn close to 6 figures. Your Biblical examples are paramount, plus I basically agree with you so I really don't have an arguement. But consider this which is worse? Preaching the prosperity gospel, or preaching the anti-prosperity gospel? Growing up evangelical, you just know and assume that christian servant aka pastors and missionaries and are not supposed to be wealthy. It's like we've traded one extreme for the other.
The income for artisan laborers in America is below that of professions requiring higher education. Yes unions do exists and do fight for better wages, but this process is not as clean as it sounds. Union workers might earn low 6 figure incomes, but their bosses get paid better than them. Ultimately someone has to pay for those wages so inflation happens, which means that $100k salary isn't what it use to be. Housing costs are much higher as well as other goods that are affected by union wages. Moreover, companies that can move their production costs into countries without unions and labor laws tend to do so because they don't value the labor force, just the income they get.
Further, America is in the upper 10% of the world and is not a far comparison to Jesus' contemporary culture. One must account for those differences, which just amplify the pay difference.
I don't believe prosperity is any worse that "anti-prosperity" gospel. Both are not the true gospel, which is that Jesus Christ came to save us. Both take the focus from where our true faith should be.
As a pastor I would love to get a 6 figure income. I work harder than most people in America and I'm paid in the lower 5-10%. I don't worry about any of that though because it is secondary to what God has called me to do. "Seek first the kingdom of heaven and His righteousness and all of these things will be added to you." I may never have a mansion on this Earth, or hundred's of thousands in the bank, but God has always provided and I trust Him to continue providing.
On a side note, I know several well paid pastors that are not prosperity preachers. They spread that blessing by giving more and more of their disposable income and living on less and less. That is pretty impressive if you ask me. If I lived in Semi Valley, CA I'd attend Francis Chan's church because I think he sets the example for his congregation.
This is such a great way to approach any issue like this. It was funny, but honest, and also highlights that we too struggle with this issue, if we're honest. The best way to call those like Osteen and Meyer to repentance is by showing them what repentance looks like.
Thanks, Michael.
I was just talking (mostly, complaining) to my fiance about this whole prosperity gospel, when I chanced upon this website. Part of my family now subscribes to this theology of free grace or radical grace (which has a lot of relation to the prosperity gospel), and it's been troubling me for a while now. I disagree with their "God wants to bless you with riches, just accept it!" statements. How refreshing is it to read this and be able to laugh about it. Thanks Jon, you've put a smile on my face.
Hilarious and reprehensible at the same time. I agree with Tabitha–we definitely need to show the "Whips" love and grace. (Doesn't that term take you back to high school history class?) But we do non-believers and those who are spiritually seeking and those who are hurting–really hurting–a HUGE disservice when we promote such inappropriate and inaccurate "gospel." Jesus said it Himself: "In this world we WILL have trouble." Prosperity doesn't help us through those times. Clinging to His nail-pierced hands does. And in return, He holds us. Plain and simple. And radically. He holds us. And that, in the end, is all we really need.
People judging other people'e ministry when they don't them personally breaks my heart. It must break God's heart when Christians bash people they don't even know. Do you know Joyce Meyer or Joel Osteen personally? Listen, I don't agree with everything they say but you know what I do admire about them? They believe in a BIG God. And their faith is often times bigger than mine. And I could learn that from them. Do I think God's desire is to make is rich? No. I don't care about that stuff. But it does say that God wants to bless his people. In what form, is for God to decide. People…just lift up the name of Jesus. And stop trying to point out what's wrong with others. God is big enough to correct them if and when they're wrong.
You know what breaks my heart? People who loose faith because they fell for the lines prosperity gospel spins and when those false promises didn't come true became confused and disillusioned, walking away from the faith. If people are preaching a false message they should not expect to be protected from accurate critique at the expense of their listeners spiritual wellbeing.
I have no doubt people have been disillusioned by this message. That's why we weigh everything we hear and see if it lines up with the Bible. However, are others lives being changed? Is gospel being preached? If so, then I rejoice as Paul says in 1 Phil. 1:17-18. Even if I happen to disagree with some of their teachings or their tactics. Here's the deal, you can critique the teaching all day long. My point is don't go after the person if you don't them or their heart. We don't need to waste our time correcting others, but we need to boldly proclaim the love and hope of Jesus Christ. If we stick to that, I'm confident God will take care of the rest.
I've spend a huge amount of time ministering to people who's lives have been devastated by being part of the word faith movement and the toll it's taken on them ultimately because they experienced some kind of catastrophic event in their life that wouldn't line up with the teaching. I have no desire to bash other people's ministry, but at the same time if I'm talking to someone who has been wounded by the whole thing I'm not going to shy away from it either. I fully believe we are all responsible to search the scriptures ourselves and the wounded people certainly could have found plenty to warn them away there…. but I do believe that Christian leaders are held responsible by God for their behavior and for leading people astray. One of the saddest things to me about the word faith movement is that it's caused people to shy away from the real truth of the Gospel… that we have a loving Father who will walk with us through the flood and the fire and bring us home to His kingdom in the end.
I totally here where you're coming from. I'm glad those people had you in their lives to help them heal.
Amen Carrie!!
Properity is all a matter of perspective. I like this website http://www.globalrichlist.com/ – check out how rich you really are. it will give you a reality check!
Yep, i think that pretty much sums up the absurdity of the prosperity gospel nicely.
Glad you put this link up Sarah. I think if more Christians did mission trips to places like Haiti, Africa, Central America, E. Europe, etc. – they would understand they've been blessed beyond most of the world's imagination. We don't think we're "rich" because we compare up, not down. Do you have food to eat? Rich. Clean water to drink? Rich. Housing? A car? Rich, rich, rich.
This summer I did an internship with a 10/40 window mission organization, and while I was there, I visited a prosperity gospel church. I wanted so bad to tell that congregation about the stories I'd written of people sticking to the faith while their families abused or disowned them, the ones who received Christ and had nothing but their own selves change.
Fortunately, I got to talk to the pastor after the service. He asked me why I was visiting, I told him about my internship and how I helped write some of the email stories sent out, and he asked to be put on the email list. The organization has three. I signed him up for all of them.
I hope I can come back to that church one day and see it completely changed by some simple world education.
God has called us to live a life more abundantly. I do not translate that as "wealthy." I think God calls us to do certain things that will bless others that are poorer in health, wealth, and spirit. To go through things He gives us a paycheck and provision to grow and enhance his kingdom – not give 10% and walk away feeling like you've done something good.
God is our Father and we our his children. What parent does not want to bless his child? Yes, we will go through stuff. Yes, we will get sick. But Jesus took our sins and sickness on the cross (1 Peter). That's why I believe strongly in healing – and I have seen miracles.
There is nothing wrong with being blessed. David said, "Wealth and riches are in my house." I don't think being wealthy is a problem – your attitude about money, being greedy, and not wanting to the needy is the problem.
Don't discount the prosperity gospel because it talks about wealth. Check your heart first, then go to God in prayer if you still have concerns. He is our greatest Teacher, after all.
You probably didn't notice my typos, but I'm going to fix them anyway. That should have said "God is our Father and we are his children" and "…and not wanting to give to the needy is the problem."
You said it so much better than I could. There is a balance between these two schools of thought. And we as humans try so hard to define it (myself included). Isn't it cool that we serve a God that is so big He blows our minds? God is such a mystery. Even though it's hard sometimes to understand Him. (OK. Alot of the times for me). It makes it an adventure to serve Him doesn't it?
This is just the discussion I had hoped to find after reading that post. Thanks for those words of balance and peace.
I love you Christy!
HUGS!!
ps:: you and your typos are pretty entertaining…you are the only person who noticed love!
I totally agree Christina. You've said what I was thinking very well. God wants us to life "more abundantly", and how He goes about it is really up to Him. Are our lives always going to be perfect and free of problems? No way. But, here's my concern – when we don't believe that He heals or provides for us, how easy is it to turn that into "God made me sick to teach me something", or "God took away my job because I needed to learn to be humble". I, personally, can't fathom a loving Father who would use pain to teach me a lesson I could learn in other ways.
Think of it this way – as a Mom if I took my 3 year old son and poured boiling water on him to teach him that it is hot and he shouldn't touch it, I would be labeled an abusive parent. But, if, even with warnings he reached out and spilled it on himself, that wouldn't be abusive – but he would hopefully also be able to learn not to do it again. We have to be careful to remember that God might use these painful things to teach us something, but at the same time know that He was not the one who caused the pain in the first place.
You make some good points. I have been known to shout "GOD REALLY DOES LOVE ME!" when I find a parking space at a crowded supermaket.
I am not a fan of the prosperity Gospel. Sometimes we can pray real hard, really believe that God will give us our heart's desire because He knows we want it, and He says no. I don't know why He says no, but I know I am supposed to trust Him
Right On to Carrie and Christina E.!
If we could all focus more on using what we have to help those who have nothing, instead of focusing on who is or isn't preaching the way we believe they should, maybe the Body of Christ could make more of a difference in the world. Maybe someone who is starving now could have something to eat. Maybe a girl trapped in a brothel could be set free. If none of God's people have anything, how would anything ever change for the better? We can't help others receive what they need, if we have nothing ourselves! Be grateful for what you have been given, and use it to help someone else.
AMEN SISTER! PREACH IT!
This is a hot topic, just go and check out MPT blog jesusneedsnewpr and see how people really feel.
http://jesusneedsnewpr.blogspot.com/2009/11/its-o...
But when I hear about a church building a 130 million dollar church building my stomach turns into knots and I get a little sick. I get sick because I find it detestable, but I also get sick because often times I wish I had money, I wish I had nice beautiful things that would in my mind make me happy.
This is such a touchy subject and humor often follows it (not a bad thing). But the concern for me is the divide it creates amongst believers.
Checked out the link. I don't know which is sadder, the bloggers rant on Joel Olsteen or people's comments against his rant. Neither really left a good taste in my mouth.
I understand what you are saying. But I respectfully have to disagree.
I do not want to turn this post into an argument over who is right and wrong, because the point of the post is humor and some honesty about how we all look for some blessing from God.
I will leave it at this. I agree with you that we do not know these people, it is impossible to know these people because they are "famous" and really you cannot even chat with them.
But I do understand what you are saying, I just disagree.
Thank you for respectfully disagreeing. For the record, I'm no fan of the prosperity gospel. It swings way to far a certain direction. I'm just trying not to waste my time criticizing others, ya know? There's so much hurting out there. I don't want to be distracted by criticizing fellow Christians while there is a world out there hurting. I leave those guys in God's hands. He is their judge and if they have led anyone astray they will answer to Him alone. And that's enough for me.
One of my friends who's husband has been a pastor for years and who has been in full time ministry forever was talking to me about how subconciously she felt like it gave her a "get out of jail free" card when it came to her kids growing up without getting in trouble, and how eye opening it was when it turned out not to be true. I have a disabled husband and some things in our life that create a lot of financial stress. My name it and claim it friends are fond of point out to me that a) if I had more faith in my life I wouldn't be struggling b) I shouldn't have any "negative confession" so I put that "out in the universe" like our words are magic and c) there must be some "familial curse" that I need to break off. But Hebrews 11 said that some walked by faith and great things happened to them and some walked by faith and "horrible" things happend to them. Our real riches… our real properity is that we have a loving Father who walks with us through it all and brings us home in the end to live with Him forever where we will never hunger or thirst again.
Of course there are things out of whack with the prosperity gospel, especially with the extreme version described here. There are things out of whack if we go to the other end of the spectrum, though. (Not really believing God is interested in healing us, not believing he gives good gifts, doubting his general disposition towards us.)
Part of me wonders how much of this is semantics. Would we object to a Blessing Gospel? That God really, really, loves us, and wants Good Things for us? That He would like to bless us in ways that bring joy and life? (And yes, a restored relationship with him would be the greatest blessing of all.) Perhaps the trick is letting Jesus decide what actually counts as blessing/prosperity for us as individuals, rather than deciding that prosperity is what society tells us.
But I don't want to judge the way he chooses to bless others. That's between my brother/sister and Him, and not something that I can decide.
Amen!
Amen! Definition and perspective (hopefully an eternal one) are everything. When 'To live is Christ and to die is gain" and "I have learned in whatsoever situation I find myself to be content" can be written by a man suffering in prison and soon to by martyred, "prosperity" means something much different. The fruit of the Spirii is JOY, which James says we can and should have DURING trials. Very different from happiness and monetary wealth, and the misconception that if we're good enough we can control God like a magic genie.
That is "hear" not "here". Good grief.
Biblically, we ARE called to correct other believers, however it is the method in which we do it that is often wrong. We should not be doing it in public where the non-believers can laugh and mock us, but in private. Only when they reject our correction are we to take the next step and go before the church, etc…
Chris, why is the assumption that non-believers will mock Christians who correct things like the prosperity gospel? I know I, as a non-believer (in God, at all, not just not in Jesus), would be heartened to see Christians opposing hurtful, selfish, greedy ministries that target people at their weakest. If only.
Needs clarification this phrase "prosperity gospel". If it's meant that Christ's death and resurrection redeems from *all* consequences of Adam's first sin (it does do that), then in "radical grace" through death to law ("through faith") there is life in abundance, Jn10v10. The heavenlies coming to earth ("thy kingdom come"), An Abba Father who blesses out of love, and his blessings concern everything "pertaining to life and godliness". See also Rom5v17,18. Through his poverty (pre-cross) the sons of God share in Christ's post-cross, resurrection riches.
Does it mean that people should never be sick or suffering in some way? No. Does it mean if they do that God is not sovereign and working all things togther for the good of those that love him (i.e. those who receive his love for them)? No.
Because God is sovereign though, does that mean that people should view God's desires towards them through the lens of "what will be will be"? That it might actually be his will that they should be ill, in lack, and suffering; that their humanity and life is less than what God intended redemption should acheive? No. How can it?
Money is not unclean in itself (nothing is), and God purifies the heart through grace alone when he makes it new. Let the sons and daughters of God receive from his largesse what he would give them. The way to have a heart not "loving money" while not shunning it is to get it properly under the grace of *imputed* righteousness with all its consequences. The person that is filled with God's love for them in washing away their sins to bring them into life as a "son", is a heart that's in the right place for all of life and living. It's a heart that knows its in union with Christ.
It's a heart that just enjoys it's Daddy God who's strong for them and in them.
awesome…I'm glad I'm not the only one who feels this way!
The kind of properity gospel people have in mind here is one that says "If you name what you want and give lots of money God will make you absurdly rich, completely healthy and always happy"
"That it might actually be his will that they should be ill, in lack, and suffering; that their humanity and life is less than what God intended redemption should acheive? No. How can it? "
Paul had some kind of affliction as part of Gods will. The saints mentioned in hebrews 11 suffered some terrible things. Plenty of faithful believers today suffer in all sorts of ways. It would seem that God's will can include some not so nice things sometimes
Kyle Reed posted this video in the Joel Osteen discussion at the Jesus Needs New PR site:
http://vimeo.com/7196941
Made me sad to watch that, b/c these people are in extreme poverty.
My question is why would anyone want to be rich after what Jesus said?
Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God. (Matt 19.24)
But woe to you who are rich, for you have already received your comfort. Woe to you who are well fed now, for you will go hungry. (Luke 6.24-25)
I was ready to go back and find that, but thanks for doing it for me. I think the video puts a face on the issue a little more.
Love your comment, Ben Henderson.
@michael_parks, so do you understand those verse to be saying that only the poor (and some of those) will get to heaven?! Or that riches must necessarily be a problem?
What Jesus is saying (context is king) is that no-one can be justfied by their works (think "rich young ruler"). There's always "one thing you lack", and contrary the standard Jewish mentality of the day, wealth was not the measure of God's favour, justfiying folks for their law-keeping efforts. Indeed, the rich young ruler was seen not to be able to get into the kingdom by his own righteousness, even though he was trying, by his love of money.
What he needed to know was that if he received the gift of righteousness apart from the law, he would be qualified for receving all of God's favour (the qualification totally outside himself), and he would have a heart not wedded to his possessions at the same time…the consequence of blessing, not the prerequisite.
Receiving God's blessings (whatever they are) is not a question of "how big is my faith" but what is the quality of it? Do I know I'm qualified as the righteousness of God in Christ, now, forever, and that does not depend on me or my "faith"?
What I understand Jesus saying is that wealth can be a distraction. It is easy for us to look at what we have accumulated and think that we did it and we don't need God. It is also easy to become greedy. The more wealth we accumulate, the more wealth we want.
I struggle with this myself. I want to buy a new HD TV. Which one should I get? I can get this size with these features for this amount. Oooh, but for a little bit more money, I can get one that is 2 inches bigger. Ooooh, and for a little more than that one, I can get one with a better picture. Oh wow, for a little bit more than that, I can get an even bigger one!
Where do I stop? It is so easy for us to get caught up in materialism. God doesn't want us to worry about those things. It is selfish thinking. It becomes about me instead of about God and blessing others.
Is it a sin to be rich? I don't believe Jesus is saying that. Does it make it harder? I believe so.
The important thing is your attitude toward your wealth and what you do with it. Is God pleased when someone spends millions of dollars on a luxury item when nearly 30,000 children die every single day from lack of food and clean water? How can he be?
The prosperity "gospel" is no gospel at all. Gospel means "good news." What makes it good news is that it is a free gift I have not earned and cannot earn. The prosperity "gospel" tells me that if I do this, and this, and this, God will grant me prosperity. It's just like any other religion: Islam. Hinduism, Scientology, etc.: God will bless me if I do this.
What separates true Christianity from every other religion and makes it Good News is that God has already blessed me by taking my place on the cross. And he did this while I was his enemy (Romans 5). No amount of money or earthly wealth could ever take the place of that blessing. What I do for God is not to earn his blessings, it is an act of thanks for what he has already done for me.
I would like to add that in over 50 countries around the world, Christians with great faith live in great earthly poverty and suffer intense persecution for their faith.
I don’t care who’s preaching it, a “gospel” that is only true in the U.S. is not really true anywhere. False teachings abound within the church making us nothing but a mockery in the world.
I don't care who's preaching it, a "gospel" that is only true in the U.S. is not really true anywhere.
That's very true. I think one of the things prosperity gospel in the west indicates is a lack of understanding about how things are in the rest of the world. Prosperity gospel is absurd in most other contexts.
Yep, real Christians do suffer persecution (of various sorts). That's a given, and nothing to do with it. (Many christians "suffer" in their self-righteousness too…)
Yep, wealth is not a sign of "great faith"…And neither is poverty, and certainly not a poverty-spirit (wide sense of the phrase; bad news gospel the cause).
My point, Phil, is simply that these people have “faith,” but faith is not a talisman that wards off pain and suffering. It is something that sustains us through the pain and suffering.
A problem with trying to eliminate all pain and suffering with the blab it/grab it teaching is that God uses pain and suffering as a tool to draw us closer to Him and make us more like Him. We try to be “closer to” and “more like” Him, yet want to circumvent His ways (which are higher than ours) to get there. It’s sort of like climbing over the wall rather than going through the door.
Fact: It IS never God's will for you to be sick, or sad, or poor.
Why? Because God's CHARACTER is good, faithful, loving, healing.
God's character NEVER changes.
Therefore God ALWAYS wants healing…he ALWAYS wants goodness….etc.etc.
(but, yes, we live in a fallen world, where evil gets to play around for the moment, and free will happens…and therefore God's PERFECT will doesn't always happen)
And have you ever looked into the VERY definitions of SALVATION? Just get your Strongs and read through the Hebrew and Greek definitions…the substance of the word that gets lost in translation.
SALVATION MEANS healing, health, safety, deliverance, PROSPERITY, etc. etc.
So before you throw out the "prosperity gospel" because there's is crazies that abuse it….why don't you just go back and see what the BIBLE says.
"(but, yes, we live in a fallen world, where evil gets to play around for the moment, and free will happens…and therefore God's PERFECT will doesn't always happen)"
This sounds okay in the comments section of a blog.
It sounds like garbage in a room containing a small casket.
Psalm 115.3 says, "Our God is in heaven; he does whatever pleases him." Can anyone hinder his will? Wouldn't that make us more powerful than him if our 'free will' can stay his hand?
Dave is right with his casket comment. We were at the funeral of a 30 year old who died of cancer last year, and the preacher said that it wasn't God's will for cancer to kill this man. I had to bite my lip. Cancer is more powerful than God? That's a load of you know what.
Is it only God's will for people to die in ways that exclude illness? Are car crashes or gunshot wounds God's only intended way for people to die and not by sickness?
The prosperity gospel is wrong for this reason: it makes Christ a means to an end – you get Jesus in order to get a big house or nice car. The true gospel says that Christ Himself is the end. We get salvation in order to get Christ. We get heaven so we can get Christ. The real prize is Jesus.
The prosperity gospel is wrong for this reason: it makes Christ a means to an end – you get Jesus in order to get a big house or nice car. The true gospel says that Christ Himself is the end. We get salvation in order to get Christ. We get heaven so we can get Christ. The real prize is Jesus.
AMEN!
Jennifer,
How does what you describe as "fact" square with the following passage in 1 Peter 4: 12 – 19?
"Dear friends, do not be surprised at the painful trial you are suffering, as though something strange were happening to you. 13But rejoice that you participate in the sufferings of Christ, so that you may be overjoyed when his glory is revealed. 14If you are insulted because of the name of Christ, you are blessed, for the Spirit of glory and of God rests on you. 15If you suffer, it should not be as a murderer or thief or any other kind of criminal, or even as a meddler. 16However, if you suffer as a Christian, do not be ashamed, but praise God that you bear that name. 17For it is time for judgment to begin with the family of God; and if it begins with us, what will the outcome be for those who do not obey the gospel of God? 18And,
"If it is hard for the righteous to be saved,
what will become of the ungodly and the sinner?"[a]
19So then, those who suffer according to God's will should commit themselves to their faithful Creator and continue to do good."
Your "FACTS" about God simply cause those who suffer in His name and according to His will wonder what it is that THEY did wrong, compared to those BLESSED few who live well and prosper. For you to suggest that the Creator of the Universe is UNABLE to effect HIS PERFECT WILL on HIS created earth is to limit his awesomeness and his total and absolute supremacy over creation.
My God is bigger than your small god who is merely "good, faithful, loving, healing". My God loves HUMANITY and JUSTICE and MERCY so much he SENT his ONLY son to live as a man, suffer rejection, abuse and a horrendous death, to PURCHASE my freedom from SIN. He did not do that so that I could live free from suffering.
The Prosperity gospel is just one wolf in the church seeking to lead the sheep away and devour them. We are right to question it and ridicule it. If you are following Christ (taking up your CROSS, not your FERRARI) you WILL suffer. That is God's will. Should we expect to live better lives than the homeless, penniless, abused, suffering LAMB of God whom we say we follow? We are not to seek suffering as some kind of penitential path to salvation, but if we follow Christ, suffering will come. It is God's will, it's in His book. That does not mean that there are no faithful who are blessed with riches, but to promote the idea that you can follow Christ in order to AVOID suffering and/or to GAIN earthly riches – that is heresy. Plain and simple.
Jennifer, can you point me to some verse(s) that would show me it’s never God’s will for us to be sick and the other things you mentioned?
"So before you throw out the "prosperity gospel" because there's is crazies that abuse it….why don't you just go back and see what the BIBLE says."
I think that's kind of the point – when most people use the term "prosperity gospel" they ARE refering to the crazies who abuse it. People who say "I was poor, and then I started following God, and then he blessed me with this huge house." While saying (either implicitly or explicitly) that the same will happen to you. It's a Christianese term that specifically applies to those who promise material wealth for following God.
Jenn,
Send me a prayer, sister, that I may get a hold of who my Abba is more and more.
Ok….so I actually love SCL but I really dislike this post.
All I can say is that the God I worship is Abba. He is my Daddy and He takes care of my needs and keeps me in health. I attend a church that believes very strongly that it is not the Lord's will that we should be sick, and we have seen tumors dissipate and cancer healed. God loves us all more than we can even attempt to comprehend…how can God give you something that you don't even believe in? Please don't put limits on God…He is capable of doing things that would blow your mind. You blame others for ignoring parts of the bible but you have done the same…God wants to bless us all abundantly.
I find this funny and sad at the same time. I can't help thinking that this is a particularly "western" discussion as SO much of the world lives in such poverty. Isn't it true that
christianity is flourishing in areas where the poverty is palpable, children starve and an orphans cry. How does that fit with the "prosperity" message. I know that God has provided so much for us, He is our all-sufficient source. How much is too much????
I have been very, very, tempted to lambaste Joel "creeps me out" Osteen and Creflo "fitting last name" Dollar on my own blog, but I think it is better to just identify our tenancies towards greed and narcissism than fault the wicked for their mistakes.
Thanks. I enjoyed it and it is so true.
I've known a few folks who believe in this.
But i live the flip side of the coin. My husband & i are childless. (Please don't email me & tell me "there are plenty of children in the world who need a good home. Been thru that. Please don't go there. Some folks have a good reason not to adopt, even if you disagree with it.) I also have significant health issues that make functioning every day difficult.
And i am frequently on the rough end of someone taking me to task for not trusting God enough, not praying enough, not reading the Bible enough, etc., ad nauseum.
Yeah, the prosperity gospel ideas sound good enough until you have to live on the flip side. My husband & i don't have those "blessings." It isn't easy to live with. But i do trust that God will work things out to HIS glory – it is not all about me/us. Go tell the folks who are being persecuted in other countries for their faith in God & tell them they just don't trust enough or pray enough.
Don't even get me started.
Ignatius once said that we should be as willing to live in luxury as to live in simplicity, or to live in simplicity as to live in luxury. This whole prosperity gospel thing tends to leave people on extremes of the fence, but it's not like that. God doesn't NOT want us to be healthy or rich. In fact, i would venture to say that if He had His way, everything would be perfect. But He DOES tell us that in living for Him, we will encounter trials and tests and other un-fun things. I'm not so sure that those are because He wants pain for us. I think it's more of a broken world + broken people = bad stuff happening. He certainly works through painful circumstances, but I'm pretty sure He doesn't cause pain and suffering.
And really, this prosperity gospel debate is all wrong because it puts the emphasis on our lives. In everything that happens, we're supposed to give God the glory. When we're healthy or rich, we thank God because He's bigger than, and the source of health and wealth. And when we're sick or poor, we thank God because He has conquered illness and death, and always provides for His children. It's not really about us "prospering" or not. It's about God being glorified through every circumstance.
Sure, Christian leaders should be careful of what their messages are emphasizing, but like Adam in the garden, each person is responsible for what they choose to believe (or, in his case, eat). We all have the WHOLE message available to us in the Bible, and it really isn't in favor of either side.
Ignatius once said that we should be as willing to live in luxury as to live in simplicity, or to live in simplicity as to live in luxury. This whole prosperity gospel thing tends to leave people on extremes of the fence, but it's not like that. God doesn't NOT want us to be healthy or rich. In fact, i would venture to say that if He had His way, everything would be perfect. But He DOES tell us that in living for Him, we will encounter trials and tests and other un-fun things. I'm not so sure that those are because He wants pain for us. I think it's more of a broken world + broken people = bad stuff happening. He certainly works through painful circumstances, but I'm pretty sure He doesn't cause pain and suffering.
And really, this prosperity gospel debate is all wrong because it puts the emphasis on our lives. In everything that happens, we're supposed to give God the glory. When we're healthy or rich, we thank God because He's bigger than, and the source of health and wealth. And when we're sick or poor, we thank God because He has conquered illness and death, and always provides for His children. It's not really about us "prospering" or not. It's about God being glorified through every circumstance.
Sure, Christian leaders should be careful of what their messages are emphasizing, but like Adam in the garden, each person is responsible for what they choose to believe (or, in his case, eat). We all have the WHOLE message available to us in the Bible, and it really isn't in favor of either side.
I'd agree with many others that the base message of the prosperity gospel is to believe that God is big (like He says He is)… and that requires faith that many Americans have lost. SOMEONE's gotta remind us, since we're obviously not grasping (or believing) that concept from what we read in the Bible.
This is a great post.
As for me? My biggest problem with the prosperity gospel is grace. I never earned my salvation because I never earned grace. It was given to me because God wanted to have a relationship with me. I think blessings work the same way–he wants me to do something with them, something that will be meaningful in loving God and loving others.
Besides, bad things happen. They always happen. They happened at Fort Hood very recently. Sometimes it isn't about prosperity; you just have to trust that God is big enough to know what he's doing.
I do believe God wants us to be blessed (Deut 28), but that he wants us to realize that life is not only about being blessed (Matt 4:4). The story doesn’t end with being blessed/blessings – we are blessed to be a blessing (Gen 50:19-20). The point of life is to glorify God (John 9:1-4, Mark 12:41-44, Job).
[...] friend and fellow Canyon-ite, Michael Kelley, has a guest post on Stuff Christians Like. It’s a very funny post, and gut-wrenchingly close to home, unfortunately for me. [...]
So disturbingly honest! I am also guilty of this…mostly because I am guilty of everything. To explain: Remember being in first grade and the teacher asking who perpetrated the most recent first grade "crime" (such as miss the trash can, spill the hand paint, set fire to the mascot, etc, etc)? I always felt guilty and NEVER was the guilty party. (Before you ask, no, I am not a Catholic.)
Now, when I write my offering check (we can't pay online like some new fangled joints out there) I am always wondering if I am only doing it to cash in on some saving grace. Maybe it is some weird form of schizophrenia. "Of course your motives are pure." "No, they're not." :Yuh huh!" "Not possible." Too funny.
Thanks for another great post!
Jon-Jon-Jon!
Posts like these are some of the reasons I love you so. It’s just so fun and insightful to read this blog, and to see you knock it out of the park with your wit and wisdom.
I’ll be linking my blog peeps to this post.
Thanks for what you do, Mister.
This one has been a bit of a temptation this week. I previously got some rather ego bruising marks (eg. borderline fail) despite having studied hard in a subject i really need to pass. Handing in my most recent piece of work obviously i was praying hard that that the marker would be favourable and give me the good mark i need to pull me back on track. It was very easy to slip into telling God all the good things i've done that made me deserve that good mark. I'm trying hard to pray without bringing my goodness into it all.
If you could pray for a great mark for me too that would be great
Since when did we forget that our bank account should be in heaven? Thats what I want to know.
Just to clarify…Joyce Meyer does NOT preach the prosperity gospel. She has spoken out against it many times.
This is the response she gives to that question on her website
Is Joyce Meyer Ministries a "word of faith" ministry?
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Joyce Meyer Ministries believes in the Word of God. Joyce teaches that God has made promises to us in His Word and as believers, we should trust His promises (see 2 Peter 1:3,4). However, it can be damaging when people place their faith in faith alone instead of placing their faith in God. Misappropriation of God’s promises solely for personal gain is not scripturally supported. For more information, view our Statement of Faith.
#
Does Joyce Meyer Ministries teach a "prosperity gospel"?
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Joyce Meyer Ministries believes that God desires to bless His people. Joyce teaches that God’s blessings and prosperity apply to the spiritual, emotional, physical and financial areas of life. These blessings and prosperity are then to be used to bless others (see Genesis 12:1-3). A “prosperity gospel” that solely equates blessing with financial gain is out of balance and could damage a person’s walk with God. For more information, view our Statement of Faith.
http://www.joycemeyer.org/AboutUs/FAQ/
I lean on Proverbs 30:7-9, Phil.4:11-13, Romans 8:28-39, thanking GOD for who He is and what He gives.
I like your site, thought I am not a Christian. I like your compassion.
Something to consider is the notion that you have to catch yourself judging others then realize that you have an opportunity to correct yourself and grow in faith and wisdom, as opposed to greed, jealousy, hatred, and bitterness, when you find yourself envying others' fortunes. Takes more work, but I think it leads to a greater reward. Blessings.
You just lost me as a reader. Cracking on other Christ-followers is pretty much verboten. And I would think you'd know that. You obviously don't know anything about Joyce Meyer. She has taught me more than any other Bible teacher in my life. The true, unadulterated Word. How to live, practically, lovingly, excellently, with no drama and no pretense. I'm so grateful for her. She doesn't teach what you said and there's nothing reprehensible about her.
I'm not familiar with the teachings of Creflo Dollar or Joel Osteen, but I know that it's not OK for you to speak about them the way that you did, either. I'm disappointed and sad, and done reading your blog. Not cool, man, so not cool. Why would do that?
I went to school at Oral Roberts University in Tulsa…you have no idea how ingrained in me that prosperity thinking is, even though I keep trying to beat it out of my head. That perspective is insidious.
I'm right in the middle of "Irresistible Revoluton" by Shane Claiborne. Yeah, it's about the most uncomfortable book I've read. Well, except for the New Testament, but somehow THAT gets filtered by all of the pastors and theologists into something MUCH more acceptable than the simple "Sell all you have, give the profits to the poor, and follow Me." He didn't really mean to do THAT, did He? That's just metaphorical, right?
Pam, I have to agree with you about the Irresistible Revolution. I just finished reading it and about a third of the way through I realized that I was totally frightened by what I was reading. And that was exciting.
I understand what the blog is about. That being said, I think it is sad that we as Christians feel like we can attack each other and feel justified. I see a lot of people in my denomination speaking against Joel Osteen and Creflo Dollar and even Andy Stanley. Where do we get off tearing one another down. In case we don't know, our numbers are shrinking not growing. This is what others are seeing. Fightings within. Who is propering now?
Joe McLain
What did Paul say about being content? (Philippians 4:11)
Hmmm……
"What makes such great confusion is how everyone feels compelled to formulate a theory and obligate everyone else to it. Someone gets an impression of Christianity. Presto! Now there has to be a theory, and everyone must subscribe to his theory. Then he gets busy developing his theory further. Then his theory is attacked, and he defends it – constantly moving away from true religiousness. He does not personally get around to acting according to the theory but manages to introduce a theory about the opposition to the theory.
No, what should be insisted upon is that I feel obligated to obey the New Testament, not to theorize about it. I cannot obligate others. I simply say: I feel obligated in this way and will express it in action. Truth does not try to get a random bunch of people obligated to me or to my conception. No, each person must be alone before God and become obligated by it." -Søren Kierkegaard
Every Christian in America is vastly more prosperous than the majority of the world. Most people live on about a dollar a day many earning it by hard labor done in the blazing sun. Remember that when you enjoy your next $4 coffee searching the net on your new Mac. We are the ones the Bible speaks of as "the rich". I know I see it everyday living as a missionary in SE Asia. Let's lay off Joyce, Creflo, and Joel and take the plank out of our own eye first. Love all yall!